Evolution: Fact Or Fiction

Whats your religion?

Atheist	39.3%	[ 1138 ]
Protestant	16.9%	[ 489 ]
Catholic	14.1%	[ 407 ]
Hindu	1.3%	[ 37 ]
Muslim	1.8%	[ 53 ]
Jew	2.3%	[ 67 ]
Buddhist	5.1%	[ 149 ]
Greek Orthodox	0.7%	[ 21 ]
Pagan	14.2%	[ 412 ]
Egyptian	4.2%	[ 122 ]
Total Votes:			[ 2895 ]

[Golden Dysprosium]

Ashley the Bee

Patella

No, I like my answer.

1. That's fine. It's still wrong.

Patella

You also didn't mention anything about rain before, and if I'm reading correctly, you're implying that the "great flood" was the first time it rained in over 2 billion years.

2. I didn't think I was "implying" it, given I outright said it. ^_^

Patella

The atmosphere would also account for the dinosaurs, and since the first multi-cellular organisms were aquatic, I guess that requires water and an atmosphere.

3. I don't understand this thought at all... I read this as you saying, well, there was an atmosphere, since it rained, and so there must have been dinosaurs, since life started in the water.

... what?

Patella

here's a timeline: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001198.html
and another: history of Earth
and one more: Earth's atmosphere

4. Okay, you really need to stop referencing Wikipedia. Anyone can edit it, and so, anyone can make it absolutely wrong.

Patella

According to this, your water and atmosphere appeared before the first life on earth.

5.According to reasoning, water would almost certainly be required for the first cells to be created.

Patella

Besides, I thought this was about evolution of organisms, no?

6. Don't blame me, -gjuvv- brought up the flood, I made a joke, and you took it seriously. =p

1. explain why it's wrong.
2. so you outright said that in 2 billion years, it never rained. Alright, explain it to everyone.
3. you thought I said that rain created earth's atmosphere? Good work. I said there was water and an atmosphere, thus it could support life, and would make percipitation possible. Why would I state that rain created the dinosaurs or the atmosphere?
4.The first one isn't wiki. Plus, I read through everything before I post to check for errors and that it makes sense.
5.yeah, I know. I studied evolution. I read the scientific findings on it. I know my stuff. You just read it wrong. Again.
6. actually, I was trying to take it back to the original topic. But it seems like you still want to talk about the weather. rolleyes

[Ashley the Bee]

Patella

1. explain why it's wrong.

It's wrong because there wasn't an ocean yet, or surface water. The water cycle depends upon water evaporating, condensing into clouds, and raining.

The water (most likely) came from volcanoes releasing steam, ash and gases. This would not only allow the formation of an atmosphere, but also the first rains. After it starts to rain, then the water cycle can begin.

Patella

2. so you outright said that in 2 billion years, it never rained. Alright, find me a reference source that says that. FYI the bible isn't one.

I said I was talking about the first time it rained, not when that happened.

Patella

3. you thought I said that rain created earth's atmosphere? Good work. I said there was water and an atmosphere, thus it could support life, and would make percipitation possible. Why would I state that rain created the dinosaurs or the atmosphere?

You said:

Patella previously

The atmosphere would also account for the dinosaurs, and since the first multi-cellular organisms were aquatic, I guess that requires water and an atmosphere.

I don't understand what that means. An atmosphere doesn't account for dinosaurs. The fact that dinosaurs breathed air and flew would account for an atmosphere though.

Patella

4.The first one isn't wiki. Plus, I read through everything before I post to check for errors and that it makes sense.

And you've published many papers on the early earth, geology and biology? Sorry, but using yourself as a scholarly source isn't such a great idea.

Patella

5.yeah, I know. I studied evolution. I read the scientific findings on it. I know my stuff. You just read it wrong. Again.

You wrote:

Patella

According to this, your water and atmosphere appeared before the first life on earth.

And I responded by saying, "According to reasoning, water would almost certainly be required for the first cells to be created." Can you point out my error, without pointing one out in your argument, since we both said the same thing? That is, the earth almost certainly had an atmosphere and surface water before life began?

Patella

6. actually, I was trying to take it back to the original topic. But it seems like you still want to talk about the weather. :roll

You should realize that I wrote my comment as a joke, as I said. You didn't get it, in accordance to rule 666.5. You then go on to make silly arguments telling me that I'm wrong.

You see, the joke is, there was a great flood, because it is highly unlikely that the earth formed with oceans. There had to be massive amounts of rain to create them, and, in covering vast swaths of the planet, that would certainly be considered a "flood".

I never said life existed before this, since that would be wrong. Life, as we know it, depends upon things that just didn't exist on the very young earth.

Aside from that, there is no "topic" to get back to. Evolution is fact, and creationism is unprovable. Yay! But the "debate" goes on, with each new person saying, "The Bible is true! We're all children of Adam and rib lady Eve! Dinosaur bones were put there by the devil because he's so mean!"

[Golden Dysprosium]

Ashley the Bee

The water (most likely) came from volcanoes releasing steam, ash and gases. This would not only allow the formation of an atmosphere, but also the first rains. After it starts to rain, then the water cycle can begin.

You see, the joke is, there was a great flood, because it is highly unlikely that the earth formed with oceans. There had to be massive amounts of rain to create them, and, in covering vast swaths of the planet, that would certainly be considered a "flood".

First off, your jokes suck. Secondly, the water does not start in the atmosphere. It starts with the water on the ground, evaporates, then it reaches the atmosphere, then it rains, and the water is back on the ground. What I want you to explain is what I highlighted in blue. So I'm going to ask you this: do you or do you not believe that rain created the water on earth?

[dragonmatt5]

Ashley the Bee

It's wrong because there wasn't an ocean yet, or surface water. The water cycle depends upon water evaporating, condensing into clouds, and raining.

The water (most likely) came from volcanoes releasing steam, ash and gases. This would not only allow the formation of an atmosphere, but also the first rains. After it starts to rain, then the water cycle can begin.

wait, what?!? in the time of noah (which would be according to the bible less then 6000 years ago, since that is when they say the world was created) there were no oceans? that makes no sense. We have fossil records of sea creatures much older then that. Hell life is believed to origionated in the oceans. To say there was no oceans for water to evaporate from during noah's flood is pure rediculousness. Or am i missing something?

Ashley the Bee

I said I was talking about the first time it rained, not when that happened.

oh, ok i think i get it now, your referring to how water came to earth in the first place. well since water is the 2nd most common matter in the universe, i would assume when the spacial junk gathered and formed into the earth, a lot of water came with it. Thus once it gained enough mass to maintain nesessary gravity, the water that was evaporating started to form the atmosphere. Because of how common water is, there would never have been a time the planet was bare and devoid of it.

When the planet formed, the heavier substances like iron and metals were pulled to the center of the earth, the lighter polycarbates were after that then the even lighter water on top of that.

Ashley the Bee

You said:

Patella previously

The atmosphere would also account for the dinosaurs, and since the first multi-cellular organisms were aquatic, I guess that requires water and an atmosphere.

I don't understand what that means. An atmosphere doesn't account for dinosaurs. The fact that dinosaurs breathed air and flew would account for an atmosphere though.

umm....yeah, dinosaurs needed an atmosphere. true. the first creatures were aquatic, also true.

Ashley the Bee

And you've published many papers on the early earth, geology and biology? Sorry, but using yourself as a scholarly source isn't such a great idea.

using proven science of the rest of the community is generally how things get rolling. either by basing your idea on existing principles or by trying to disprove them. though using ones' self as a source would be a bit egotistical.

Ashley the Bee

You should realize that I wrote my comment as a joke, as I said. You didn't get it, in accordance to rule 666.5. You then go on to make silly arguments telling me that I'm wrong.

You see, the joke is, there was a great flood, because it is highly unlikely that the earth formed with oceans. There had to be massive amounts of rain to create them, and, in covering vast swaths of the planet, that would certainly be considered a "flood".

I never said life existed before this, since that would be wrong. Life, as we know it, depends upon things that just didn't exist on the very young earth.

Aside from that, there is no "topic" to get back to. Evolution is fact, and creationism is unprovable. Yay! But the "debate" goes on, with each new person saying, "The Bible is true! We're all children of Adam and rib lady Eve! Dinosaur bones were put there by the devil because he's so mean!"

I don't get the joke. the earth DID form with oceans....

maybe i am just confused?

[Golden Dysprosium]

because it's hilariously wrong:

Ashley the Bee

The water (most likely) came from volcanoes releasing steam, ash and gases. This would not only allow the formation of an atmosphere, but also the first rains. After it starts to rain, then the water cycle can begin.

Because you don't know anything about volcanoes, First off, volcanoes don't release anything close to water, unless you mean molten lava, or are confusing them with These. They don't even contain water. Our atmosphere isn't composed of volcanic ash; It's mostly nitrogen and oxygen. Atmospheric gas percentages

Ashley the Bee

You see, the joke is, there was a great flood, because it is highly unlikely that the earth formed with oceans. There had to be massive amounts of rain to create them, and, in covering vast swaths of the planet, that would certainly be considered a "flood".

That's not what the top research scientists of NASA (you might have heard of it) say... NASA's geological history findingsThat's not wiki, that's your own government's scientific findings. (assuming you're american)

dragonmatt

well since water is the 2nd most common matter in the universe, i would assume when the spacial junk gathered and formed into the earth, a lot of water came with it. Thus once it gained enough mass to maintain nesessary gravity, the water that was evaporating started to form the atmosphere. Because of how common water is, there would never have been a time the planet was bare and devoid of it.

You got it! biggrin sorta.

For the learned: in the beginning, it is scientifically theorized the the earth was relatively small, comparable to mars (which we recently found evidence of H2O on). It was then bombarded by planetesimals. There is a high possibility that some of the planetesimals contained crystalized nobel gases such as O2 and H, key components in water. High temperatures are needed to melt the crystals and release the gases. Since the earth was highly volcanic, it would've been simple. Once the crystals had turned to water, it cooled the lava, and some level of water began to appear. The gases from the volcanoes contributed and mixed with the H and O and formed the atmosphere. I'm not a reference source, and just because I don't publish works doesn't mean I don't know anything about science. And you still haven't answered my question, "Ashley".

[Ashley the Bee]

Patella

because it's hilariously wrong:

Ashley the Bee

The water (most likely) came from volcanoes releasing steam, ash and gases. This would not only allow the formation of an atmosphere, but also the first rains. After it starts to rain, then the water cycle can begin.

Because you don't know anything about volcanoes, First off, volcanoes don't release anything close to water, unless you mean molten lava, or are confusing them with These. They don't even contain water. Our atmosphere isn't composed of volcanic ash; It's mostly nitrogen and oxygen. Atmospheric gas percentages

From your article:

How Stuff Works

The erupting force generally comes from internal gas pressure. The material that forms magma contains a lot of dissolved gases -- gases that have been suspended in the magma solution.

And from the CDC

Quote:

Most gases from a volcano quickly blow away. However, heavy gases such as carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulfide can collect in low-lying areas. The most common volcanic gas is water vapor, followed by carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide.

Patella

Ashley the Bee

You see, the joke is, there was a great flood, because it is highly unlikely that the earth formed with oceans. There had to be massive amounts of rain to create them, and, in covering vast swaths of the planet, that would certainly be considered a "flood".

That's not what the top research scientists of NASA (you might have heard of it) say... NASA's geological history findingsThat's not wiki, that's your own government's scientific findings. (assuming you're american)

Quote:

A new Caltech study of comet Hale-Bopp suggests that comets did not give Earth its water, buttressing other recent studies but contrary to the longstanding belief of many planetary scientists.

In the March 18 issue of Nature, cosmochemist Geoff Blake and his team show that Hale-Bopp contains sizable amounts of "heavy water," which contains a heavier isotope of hydrogen called deuterium.

Thus, if Hale-Bopp is a typical comet, and if comets indeed gave Earth its water supply billions of years ago, then the oceans should have roughly the same amount of deuterium as comets. In fact, the oceans have significantly less.

Earth's water probably didn't come from comets, Caltech researchers say

Patella

For the learned: in the beginning, it is scientifically theorized the the earth was relatively small, comparable to mars (which we recently found evidence of H2O on). It was then bombarded by planetesimals. There is a high possibility that some of the planetesimals contained crystalized nobel gases such as O2 and H, key components in water.

Nobel Gases

Quote:

* Helium * Neon * Argon * Krypton * Xenon * Radon

They are called "nobel" because they do not (easily) interact with other elements, since they have a full valence electron shell. Helium with 2, Neon with 8, etc, etc...

Oxygen has 6 valence electrons, so it can have two more in there. Hydrogen has one valence electron. To form water, the hydrogen shares it's electron with the oxygen to fill it's outer ring.

Patella

And you still haven't answered my question, "Ashley".

This is true. I hope you'll forgive me for being away this afternoon. I will reply to your previous message shortly.

[Shaviv]

It's "noble" gases, because like noble families, they don't interact with anything common.

Alfred Nobel was a weapons manufacturer par excellence, and made a neat endowment for prizes in several different fields (though not math, since a mathematician ran off with his wife), but the gases are not named after him.

[Ashley the Bee]

Patella

First off, your jokes suck.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy them.

Patella

Secondly, the water does not start in the atmosphere. It starts with the water on the ground, evaporates, then it reaches the atmosphere, then it rains, and the water is back on the ground. What I want you to explain is what I highlighted in blue. So I'm going to ask you this: do you or do you not believe that rain created the water on earth?

Yes, I know how the water cycle works. But, you see, if there is no surface water, what water can evaporate to form clouds and then rain?

Do I believe that rain created the water on earth? That'd be pretty silly of me to think! Where would the water for the rain come from?

I subscribe to the theory that the oceans came from material that was around the young earth.

[Jaaten Syric]

Ashley the Bee

I subscribe to the theory that the oceans came from material that was around the young earth.

I was hoping that initial response was a joke, but dammit if Poe's law isn't a b***h...

Though to be fair I support more of a hybrid hypothesis at least until more of a consensus is reached.

[Ashley the Bee]

Jaaten Syric

Ashley the Bee

I subscribe to the theory that the oceans came from material that was around the young earth.

I was hoping that initial response was a joke, but dammit if Poe's law isn't a b***h...

Though to be fair I support more of a hybrid hypothesis at least until more of a consensus is reached.

To be fair, you have to understand that when I was taught about the formation of the planet, the thought was that water, and even the atmosphere, would have been subjected to such high energy levels that it couldn't stick around, and that it was only after things had calmed down that the atmosphere and oceans could be formed from the gasses that were trapped within the rocks.

This sort of thing.

Ah, here we go:

Quote:

After loss of the hydrogen, helium and other hydrogen-containing gases from early Earth due to the Sun's radiation, primitive Earth was devoid of an atmosphere. The first atmosphere was formed by outgassing of gases trapped in the interior of the early Earth, which still goes on today in volcanoes.
[...]
The Early atmosphere was probably dominated at first by water vapor, which, as the temperature dropped, would rain out and form the oceans. This would have been a deluge of truly global proportions an resulted in further reduction of CO2.

Not that this is what happened, but it is (or at least was!) a thought for how the atmosphere and oceans came to be.

[Sun Saru]

Anyone who has ever studied the micro-cosom that is the bacteria and the virus could never deny evolution. Whenever these little guys become resistant to a treatment, that's evolution at work.

[Golden Dysprosium]

Ashley the Bee

To be fair, you have to understand that when I was taught about the formation of the planet, the thought was that water, and even the atmosphere, would have been subjected to such high energy levels that it couldn't stick around, and that it was only after things had calmed down that the atmosphere and oceans could be formed from the gasses that were trapped within the rocks.
The Early atmosphere was probably dominated at first by water vapor, which, as the temperature dropped, would rain out and form the oceans. This would have been a deluge of truly global proportions an resulted in further reduction of CO2.
Not that this is not what happened, but it is (or at least was!) a thought for how the atmosphere and oceans came to be.

Huh. Interesting. neutral I suppose it's a more plausible thing, as the comet thing seemed a bit random to me. As you may have guessed I'm not an enthusiast of chemistry (I have nothing but contempt for equations and numbers), which you clearly know more about then I do. The biology is more interesting, which is why I join in on these threads, though they usually get too emotionally charged sweatdrop . Well, thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm still a bit unclear as to the water vapor in the volcanoes though... confused

[Eponishta]

I suppose I am an enigma.... Not Christian at all, nor any of the religions you posted in your poll, but I don't believe in Evolution...

[Vryko Lakas]

Eponishta

I suppose I am an enigma.... Not Christian at all, nor any of the religions you posted in your poll, but I don't believe in Evolution...

Care to discuss it?

[ScorpioDragonLady]

Have you seen humans evolve from apes?