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- Posted: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:54:41 +0000
Lady Tam Li Hua
Miku: Seeing so many of Chitsa's/Vasha's abrasiveness all in one place like that made me realize something: Every time someone disagrees with her, she curses them or calls them ignorant.
Now, I'm all for standing up for what you believe in, but if history has taught us anything, it's that true change doesn't come from force and belittlement. All that does is make the other party more steadfast in their original position. [To add to that, I don't get why she kept calling people "ignorant". Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. If someone then acquires the knowledge, they are no longer ignorant. However, folks can be knowledgable about a subject, and -still- disagree with others who have the same knowledge. I think THAT'S what drives her crazy, that people know all the consequences and what-have-you, but -still- don't have a problem with the procedure.
I know I don't, and yes, I've learned a lot in this thread about the subject. *shrug* Just...how I feel about it.
BTW, how can someone hope for their prayers to be heard if they don't believe in anything spiritual..? That one struck me as -really- odd..]
I wonder if she's like this IRL. I hope for her kids' sake she's not this verbally abusive towards them....or really at all.
Now, I'm all for standing up for what you believe in, but if history has taught us anything, it's that true change doesn't come from force and belittlement. All that does is make the other party more steadfast in their original position. [To add to that, I don't get why she kept calling people "ignorant". Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. If someone then acquires the knowledge, they are no longer ignorant. However, folks can be knowledgable about a subject, and -still- disagree with others who have the same knowledge. I think THAT'S what drives her crazy, that people know all the consequences and what-have-you, but -still- don't have a problem with the procedure.
I know I don't, and yes, I've learned a lot in this thread about the subject. *shrug* Just...how I feel about it.
BTW, how can someone hope for their prayers to be heard if they don't believe in anything spiritual..? That one struck me as -really- odd..]
I wonder if she's like this IRL. I hope for her kids' sake she's not this verbally abusive towards them....or really at all.
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She said she was like that irl as well. Though I personally don't believe to that extent. I came across an older circ thread where She and Mr Ransom seemed to get in a bit of a squabble. He stated that she's really changed, and the Chitsa he knew wouldn't go off on him like that. Didn't seem very happy either. Everybody has rough times, and sometimes they can affect you deep down for a long time. Much longer than you'd think, though letting all of your collective frustration out on people, even in real life isn't the way to handle it. Believe me, been down that road before.
There were some posts where she did stick to providing information and she answered some questions nicely. Normally what's supposed to happen in a debate is both people give their sides, and they continue until they've put all their information together. In the end you end up with the most common knowledge and everybody agrees. Only because you've weeded out the stuff that doesn't fit and you're left with consistency.
Sometimes though, you get one shots who come in, make a statement saying they won't change no matter what, never read a thing, and never come back. Those guys are ignorant, or trolls. Usually Troll = Ignorant. Not saying anybody's a troll though... If they were they'd have deposited one offensive/controversial comment in the entire thread and left MANY pages ago. Anybody who's been actively involved was here up until the thread was moved to the CB.
What I would've been more interested in is the situation regarding the form that had to be signed for the doctors to perform the circumcision. Whether it needs one, or two signatures, that's something that should have come up more often. Especially since some parents can go ahead and do things thinking the other would want it, even if they don't. Because it's such a 'touchy' subject for new parents, that needs to be cleared up for the sake of the infant, and the marriage/partnership. All the more reason since it involves a legal document. If that's Chitsa's/Vasha's reason for wanting to spread some knowledge around on the topic, that's what should have come to attention all along. If she didn't know they only needed one signature ahead of time, that's something to be warning everyone about so they don't go "Oh well." later.
Discussing side effects, religious reasons, health benefits (and yes, I've taken note that there aren't really any benefits/religious reasons) is a good thing to start with, and links/articles can be very informative. However you also have to assume that the reader is going to be skeptical. They're not sure whether or not they can trust you or whatever you post at first.
Some of them may decline to look at some links for fear of viruses. A while back I ended up with a bug from a school related website, of all things. My anti virus zapped it, but it didn't know to block it out. That happens with even the best programs. In one case I passed up on a link because the person misunderstood my meaning. I knew what they wanted to point out, but it wasn't related what I was talking about at the time. Maybe it seemed abrupt at the time but that wasn't my intention.
Nobody's perfect to begin with, and really, trying to fit a person with an accurate label IS a witch hunt. Especially if you only go by what that person's saying to you at the time you make a comment. First impressions happen, and sometimes they're not good ones (you can even make bad impressions later on) though as long as you're trying to clear it up the only thing you can do is bear with the person and try to explain your stance. Hopefully the person is willing to listen. Maybe not. But if you have enough patience you could try if you think it's worth it. I can't speak for everybody but I'm fairly sure the intention here isn't to call out ignorance or intelligence or hypocrisy. If I ever came across as any of the above that wasn't MY intention. And I'm sorry if it came across that way. I'm not sure how it would have but I'm still apologizing. Everybody perceives differently (as has been pointed out before) and it's the stuff that's lost in translation that's the real killer.
When you listen to two people argue, especially people you know, you can usually tell what they're trying to express. When two friends have ideas that aren't clicking, and go off into a squabble about it, you can easily see where things went wrong. When a friend makes a comment, you know what they're referencing because you know what they're like. You also know if/when the other friend will take exception to it for the same reason, and if they'll call them out. However, once somebody cries 'a*****e' everybody's distracted from the central issue. In the case of people you don't know, it takes a little more insight to understand where they're coming from. But it's still doable.
Since this is supposed to be an educational thread, that's why having a positive approach is so important. It's like raising kids. If you constantly yell at them and tell them they're wrong then they'll be fearful of you and not want to listen. If you spoil them and tell them the world is rainbows and lollipops they'll end up a brat. BUT if you balance discipline with love and teach them what's right you can usually raise a well-behaved child. Not a neglected child, not a spoiled child, but a well-behaved child.
That could be used as analogy to the people who are interested enough to at least click and see what they find. When they state their opinion or say 'this is what I've heard', it's fine to correct them. Going off and saying something about them, even if you post other stuff that's on topic, is not necessary, and scares them away. There goes your audience. Problem of misinformed people not solved. Actually it's made worse.
For the most part, we can probably understand if something's been bugging somebody, but being on the receiving end of a stick does nothing more than aggravate the other people in the discussion and make them say mean or irrational things in return. They may not mean to, they may even regret it later, anger does funny things. Then it becomes a cycle that's tough to break. Most will jump ship because they don't want to see two people arguing and are scared to jump in in case they get caught up in it and can't leave.
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She said she was like that irl as well. Though I personally don't believe to that extent. I came across an older circ thread where She and Mr Ransom seemed to get in a bit of a squabble. He stated that she's really changed, and the Chitsa he knew wouldn't go off on him like that. Didn't seem very happy either. Everybody has rough times, and sometimes they can affect you deep down for a long time. Much longer than you'd think, though letting all of your collective frustration out on people, even in real life isn't the way to handle it. Believe me, been down that road before.
There were some posts where she did stick to providing information and she answered some questions nicely. Normally what's supposed to happen in a debate is both people give their sides, and they continue until they've put all their information together. In the end you end up with the most common knowledge and everybody agrees. Only because you've weeded out the stuff that doesn't fit and you're left with consistency.
Sometimes though, you get one shots who come in, make a statement saying they won't change no matter what, never read a thing, and never come back. Those guys are ignorant, or trolls. Usually Troll = Ignorant. Not saying anybody's a troll though... If they were they'd have deposited one offensive/controversial comment in the entire thread and left MANY pages ago. Anybody who's been actively involved was here up until the thread was moved to the CB.
What I would've been more interested in is the situation regarding the form that had to be signed for the doctors to perform the circumcision. Whether it needs one, or two signatures, that's something that should have come up more often. Especially since some parents can go ahead and do things thinking the other would want it, even if they don't. Because it's such a 'touchy' subject for new parents, that needs to be cleared up for the sake of the infant, and the marriage/partnership. All the more reason since it involves a legal document. If that's Chitsa's/Vasha's reason for wanting to spread some knowledge around on the topic, that's what should have come to attention all along. If she didn't know they only needed one signature ahead of time, that's something to be warning everyone about so they don't go "Oh well." later.
Discussing side effects, religious reasons, health benefits (and yes, I've taken note that there aren't really any benefits/religious reasons) is a good thing to start with, and links/articles can be very informative. However you also have to assume that the reader is going to be skeptical. They're not sure whether or not they can trust you or whatever you post at first.
Some of them may decline to look at some links for fear of viruses. A while back I ended up with a bug from a school related website, of all things. My anti virus zapped it, but it didn't know to block it out. That happens with even the best programs. In one case I passed up on a link because the person misunderstood my meaning. I knew what they wanted to point out, but it wasn't related what I was talking about at the time. Maybe it seemed abrupt at the time but that wasn't my intention.
Nobody's perfect to begin with, and really, trying to fit a person with an accurate label IS a witch hunt. Especially if you only go by what that person's saying to you at the time you make a comment. First impressions happen, and sometimes they're not good ones (you can even make bad impressions later on) though as long as you're trying to clear it up the only thing you can do is bear with the person and try to explain your stance. Hopefully the person is willing to listen. Maybe not. But if you have enough patience you could try if you think it's worth it. I can't speak for everybody but I'm fairly sure the intention here isn't to call out ignorance or intelligence or hypocrisy. If I ever came across as any of the above that wasn't MY intention. And I'm sorry if it came across that way. I'm not sure how it would have but I'm still apologizing. Everybody perceives differently (as has been pointed out before) and it's the stuff that's lost in translation that's the real killer.
When you listen to two people argue, especially people you know, you can usually tell what they're trying to express. When two friends have ideas that aren't clicking, and go off into a squabble about it, you can easily see where things went wrong. When a friend makes a comment, you know what they're referencing because you know what they're like. You also know if/when the other friend will take exception to it for the same reason, and if they'll call them out. However, once somebody cries 'a*****e' everybody's distracted from the central issue. In the case of people you don't know, it takes a little more insight to understand where they're coming from. But it's still doable.
Since this is supposed to be an educational thread, that's why having a positive approach is so important. It's like raising kids. If you constantly yell at them and tell them they're wrong then they'll be fearful of you and not want to listen. If you spoil them and tell them the world is rainbows and lollipops they'll end up a brat. BUT if you balance discipline with love and teach them what's right you can usually raise a well-behaved child. Not a neglected child, not a spoiled child, but a well-behaved child.
That could be used as analogy to the people who are interested enough to at least click and see what they find. When they state their opinion or say 'this is what I've heard', it's fine to correct them. Going off and saying something about them, even if you post other stuff that's on topic, is not necessary, and scares them away. There goes your audience. Problem of misinformed people not solved. Actually it's made worse.
For the most part, we can probably understand if something's been bugging somebody, but being on the receiving end of a stick does nothing more than aggravate the other people in the discussion and make them say mean or irrational things in return. They may not mean to, they may even regret it later, anger does funny things. Then it becomes a cycle that's tough to break. Most will jump ship because they don't want to see two people arguing and are scared to jump in in case they get caught up in it and can't leave.
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