Catcalling on the streets

oh hey gurl y u no wanna talk to me is it bc im ugly?

yes.	100.0%	[ 60 ]
Total Votes:			[ 60 ]

[MercurysJosiegirl]

This Is NoMercy

MercurysJosiegirl

[

Oh, I am not saying they don't have a right. But you, dude deliberately posted in a way that implied that every single woman has a problem with cat-calling and that every single woman is afraid to walk down the street as a result. You then proceeded to post a few, rare articles to imply that there is a massive problem with women being attacked for rebuffing cat-calls. I requested you support the claims you made and you have failed to do so.

I never implied that all women had a problem with it.

Actually, you did. When you said 'Women don't like it'. I asked you to prove that was universal, you tried to use the thread as your 'proof'. I am still waiting on some data that says its even the majority who say they don't like it.

This Is NoMercy

I was just pointing out that it usually wasn't considered a compliment by most.

Again, you are making a claim you have yrt to prove. I am still waiting, dude.

This Is NoMercy

'Like, this thread is a perfect example of it. You'd know that if you actually read though it. I don't need to "prove" anything dude.

Seeing as how its fairly even in terms of the few who said they weren't bothered and the few who said they were, I am still waiting for your proof. Or are you just a troll, dude?

This Is NoMercy

There's multiple accounts of women saying they don't like it. Right here.

And there's multiple accounts of women saying they don't mind it. Of course you're ignoring them because they don't further your paranoia.

This Is NoMercy

And if you google "catcalling isn't a compliment." you'll get multiple articles and essays on the topic. That's proof enough.

I'm sorry, troll, but I'm not doing your work for you. I will take this as your concession that you cannot support yourself.

This Is NoMercy

Don't get all pissy at me just because you didn't feel like doing the homework yourself.

That's not how it works, troll. You made the claim, it is on you to support it.

This Is NoMercy

Why are even so obsessed with this.

You're the one coming across as obsessed. You are clinging to your paranoia like a shield and refuse to provide a single shred of evidence for your claims.

This Is NoMercy

Maybe you I should just accept that this issue isn't as black and white as you're I'm making it out to be.

Fixed it for you. You are the one who made the all encompassing claim that women didn't like it. Period. You didn't say 'Many women do not like it'. You said women, which encompasses every single female in the world.

This Is NoMercy

Quote:

How about.. no. You see, just because you want to bully others in no way means you have any say in who posts on a public thread. Your bully tactics will not work with me, dude. If you cannot handle someone asking you to support your implied claim that your mindset is universal then perhaps you should be the one to leave the thread.

I'm not bullying anyone lol what.

Yes, you are. Attacking people and telling them to get out of the thread, trying to intimidate them to make them leave, is bullying. I'm guessing you are so accustomed to doing it and have done that all your life so you have convinced yourself its not bullying when it is.

This Is NoMercy

Let me guess, you're one of those people who think anyone disagreeing with you or if they're not being perfectly sugary sweet is "cyber bullying" huh?

your ignorance is appalling. How old are you? I ask because if you;'re still in high school it might explain how you are clueless that intimidation is bullying.

This Is NoMercy

Yeah okay I can see where this is going. As someone who's actually gotten multiple rape and death threats, this really doesn't constitute as bullying.

As someone who was actually raped for being a lesbian, and intimidated prior with the same antics you've used, you sure as hell are a bully.

Learn a little something, dude.

Quote:

bully
1.
a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
2.
Archaic. a man hired to do violence.
3.
Obsolete. a pimp; procurer.
4.
Obsolete. good friend; good fellow.
5.
Obsolete. sweetheart; darling.
verb (used with object), bullied, bullying.
6.
to act the bully toward; intimidate; domineer.
verb (used without object), bullied, bullying.
7.
to be loudly arrogant and overbearing.

You have been overbearing, domineering, and tried to intimidate myself and others into leaving simply because we called you out on things.

This Is NoMercy

It's just me having a different opinion. Oohhhh scary!!

This shows you are either a troll or completely ignorant. Which is it?

This Is NoMercy

I don't even see why you're getting so damn offended. If you don't care about catcalls, the fine. I don't care. Have fun.
If other women don't like though, that's not a bad thing either. Quit acting like it is.

Again you are either completely ignorant or a troll. Which is it? The one acting offended is you. Other than calling you out on your bullying, and asking you to provide real proof, not 'Lol read da thread', which I did, and I even stated that its roughly even in terms of responses to cat-calling, the one getting their panties in a twist is you dude.

I get it You cannot support your claims and you just want to bully anyone who dares to ask you for proof because it makes you feel like a big girl, even if it just makes you look pathetic to those you're attempting to intimidate into leaving.

[AnActualLizard]

MercurysJosiegirl

Paprika Muffin

Bornes

The Ice Dervish

I know who you are Bornes, I've been on these forums for a very long time under various different names. I'm old enough to remember your cries for help when you where in the Navy. Your insight is very valuable in this thread due to you having experienced both male and female life, thank you for it.

Edit: Just now realized how creepy that last paragraph looks, sorry about that. Was just trying to say thanks, I usually don't come off that weird. I do respect you sir, just know that. In every thread you have posted on as long as I've been on this site you have provided really good insight on everything. Good on you.

Lol it's fine. That edit was more for other people. I know who you are too. And it wasn't that creepy. xP

Thank you for the compliment, also.

But back to the subject, the people going "God bless you mama" etc., I do believe they too are "innocent."
Yes, it is rude to us, but their culture is different. I view it more as culture shock. Blacks (especially low income blacks) do have their own way of communicating and own culture. And I think that sort of behavior is just normal to them. Black women might like it (I know a bit about this male demographic but nothing about black women).

No, it's not. Black women like being catcalled as much as white women do, which is to say not at all. It's normalized, but not normal.

There have been quite a few in this very thread who have said they don't mind it and even like it, so your claim that women don't like it at all is false.

Good for them. I just know if I get catcalled I feel like they are looking at me like a piece of meat and not an actual person and that makes me really uncomfortable. And I was simply breaking a stereotype that black women might like getting cat called more, and from a good friend of mine telling me her experience, no they don't. It just HAPPENS to them more often.

[MercurysJosiegirl]

Nazolene

MercurysJosiegirl

*hugs* That's awful! I hope your abuser has been made to pay the price for his actions. As for mine.. I was afraid to tell anyone about it, afraid to tell my parents at the time that it happened because it meant coming out to them before I was ready for them to know. As it turned out, they'd already figured out I wasn't straight, because when I told them, my senior year, because I wanted to go to prom with a girl, they just hugged me and said they already knew. By the time I got up the courage to talk about the rape, it just felt like it would have been useless to report it because it would be my word against his. There was no evidence of it happening and I didn't want to relive that nightmare only to have nothing come of it. In retrospect I probably should have anyway because chances are he's assaulted others.

I understand being afraid. I was scared of him, and I didn't feel I was emotionally and mentally capable of handing the fallout. I finally spilled the beans after an incident itriedtokillmyself when I was 17. He got 8 years, so he gets out in 2018. I wish it was more, but it's better than nothing. I don't know if I was his only victim, but he has a daughter. And she has a daughter, who is half black. He's extremely racist, so I'm afraid he has or would hurt her. I really hope I was the only one.

I'm so glad your parents accepted you after you told them. I hear too many tales of parents taking it badly.

If you ever get the courage, please do tell someone. I can understand why you wouldn't want to, though. I didn't have any evidence, it was just my word against his. I don't know what exactly was his downfall in losing the case, but I'm so glad he did.

More and more I am thinking I should come forward. I'll wait until Miss is back though. She's away for a few weeks, and she's my rock. I don't know that I could handle the questioning without her there. thinking that others may have been victims too... I think I have to come forward. I'm glad he at least got some jail time. I agree it should have been more, a lot more. I hope you can get to a place of healing so you can let go of the fear and live your life.

[MercurysJosiegirl]

Paprika Muffin

MercurysJosiegirl

Paprika Muffin

Bornes

The Ice Dervish

I know who you are Bornes, I've been on these forums for a very long time under various different names. I'm old enough to remember your cries for help when you where in the Navy. Your insight is very valuable in this thread due to you having experienced both male and female life, thank you for it.

Edit: Just now realized how creepy that last paragraph looks, sorry about that. Was just trying to say thanks, I usually don't come off that weird. I do respect you sir, just know that. In every thread you have posted on as long as I've been on this site you have provided really good insight on everything. Good on you.

Lol it's fine. That edit was more for other people. I know who you are too. And it wasn't that creepy. xP

Thank you for the compliment, also.

But back to the subject, the people going "God bless you mama" etc., I do believe they too are "innocent."
Yes, it is rude to us, but their culture is different. I view it more as culture shock. Blacks (especially low income blacks) do have their own way of communicating and own culture. And I think that sort of behavior is just normal to them. Black women might like it (I know a bit about this male demographic but nothing about black women).

No, it's not. Black women like being catcalled as much as white women do, which is to say not at all. It's normalized, but not normal.

There have been quite a few in this very thread who have said they don't mind it and even like it, so your claim that women don't like it at all is false.

Good for them. I just know if I get catcalled I feel like they are looking at me like a piece of meat and not an actual person and that makes me really uncomfortable. And I was simply breaking a stereotype that black women might like getting cat called more, and from a good friend of mine telling me her experience, no they don't. It just HAPPENS to them more often.

I don't like using terms that imply that it encompasses all. Some/Many don't like it. But there are still many that aren't bothered by it. Cat-calls don't bother me, its when they try to go beyond whistling or yelling out something about my body, that I pull out the pepper spray, if I'm not with Miss.. my partner. She's military and she packs quite a punch. She beat the crap out of a guy twice her size at a bar because he tried to grope me.

[AnActualLizard]

MercurysJosiegirl

Paprika Muffin

MercurysJosiegirl

Paprika Muffin

Bornes

The Ice Dervish

I know who you are Bornes, I've been on these forums for a very long time under various different names. I'm old enough to remember your cries for help when you where in the Navy. Your insight is very valuable in this thread due to you having experienced both male and female life, thank you for it.

Edit: Just now realized how creepy that last paragraph looks, sorry about that. Was just trying to say thanks, I usually don't come off that weird. I do respect you sir, just know that. In every thread you have posted on as long as I've been on this site you have provided really good insight on everything. Good on you.

Lol it's fine. That edit was more for other people. I know who you are too. And it wasn't that creepy. xP

Thank you for the compliment, also.

But back to the subject, the people going "God bless you mama" etc., I do believe they too are "innocent."
Yes, it is rude to us, but their culture is different. I view it more as culture shock. Blacks (especially low income blacks) do have their own way of communicating and own culture. And I think that sort of behavior is just normal to them. Black women might like it (I know a bit about this male demographic but nothing about black women).

No, it's not. Black women like being catcalled as much as white women do, which is to say not at all. It's normalized, but not normal.

There have been quite a few in this very thread who have said they don't mind it and even like it, so your claim that women don't like it at all is false.

Good for them. I just know if I get catcalled I feel like they are looking at me like a piece of meat and not an actual person and that makes me really uncomfortable. And I was simply breaking a stereotype that black women might like getting cat called more, and from a good friend of mine telling me her experience, no they don't. It just HAPPENS to them more often.

I don't like using terms that imply that it encompasses all. Some/Many don't like it. But there are still many that aren't bothered by it. Cat-calls don't bother me, its when they try to go beyond whistling or yelling out something about my body, that I pull out the pepper spray, if I'm not with Miss.. my partner. She's military and she packs quite a punch. She beat the crap out of a guy twice her size at a bar because he tried to grope me.

Hmm. I understand your point, and it's cool that it doesn't bother you or some other people in the thread. But it does bother a rather large majority and make them feel uncomfortable and unsafe. Therefore, the problem should be addressed.

I noticed you calling Miss Mercy 'paranoid' and such, and I'd kind of like to address that. Honestly, I am the same way. I get scared of whether or not men see me as another person with their own thoughts and goals, or a GIRL. Something guys want to date and later have sexual relations with. That is my purpose to them. Is this absurd? Yes. It is. I doubt all men are like this. However, when a man catcalls a woman, is he REALLY complimenting them? I like compliments. I work hard to make myself look good. So I like compliments like 'You look gorgeous' or 'You look beautiful today!'. What I don't like is 'Hello beautiful!' or other such things. In the former, they are complimenting me aesthetically. they want ME to know I look beautiful today. Catcalling is not at all about making the woman feel good. It is done to relieve boredom, a type of 'male bonding', and entertainment. It is not about empowering the woman being catcalled. Because she is not important. She is a walking sexual object for men to oogle at, and this is extremely dehumanizing. She is no longer a person. She is a walking pair of tits to these men. And THAT is what bothers me about catcalling.

[Vardoger]

MercurysJosiegirl

Bornes

MercurysJosiegirl

SamaSenseiSenpai

But, our brains operate different (plus all the hormone differences).

This is actually untrue.

I am just going to post the information I previously asked for elsewhere, because I'd disagreed when someone said our brains didn't work differently,and I was proven incorrect.

5th Dimension Morning

The Guardian -- Male Brain vs Female Brain

The Guardian

Summary:
Subtle observable differences exist between male and female brains, but how exactly these relate to differences in behaviour is unknown. Such gender variations in the brain are often exaggerated and misappropriated, not only by the mass media but also by scientists, to reinforce stereotypes and perpetuate myths.

The science of sex differences has always been – and still is – fraught with controversy. Some believe that behavioural differences between men and women are mostly due to cultural influences, while others argue that sex differences are largely determined by biology. In reality, the situation is far more complex. It lies somewhere in the middle, and involves two related but independent factors, which are often confused or conflated.

One of these factors is biological sex, which is determined by chromosomes. Most people have either two X chromosomes, which makes them female, or one X and one Y chromosome, which makes them male. The other is gender, which is influenced largely by the socialization process. As we grow up, we learn society's norms about how males and females look and act; for most people, sex and gender are matched, and so they inadvertently conform to these norms.

Men and women's brains differ in subtle ways, and these differences are probably established in the womb, due to the effects of sex hormones, which masculinize or feminize the organ as it develops. However, we still do not understand the effects of sex hormones on the developing brain, or how the subtle differences observed between men and women's brains are related to differences in their behaviour.

Battle of the sexes?
The most obvious difference between the brains of men and women is overall size – men's brains are, on average, between 10 and 15 per cent larger than women's. In one recent study, neuroscientists compared the brains of 42 men and 58 women postmortem, and found that men's weighed an average of 1,378g (3lb), compared with 1,248g (2.75lb) for women. These size differences have been found repeatedly, but they emerge only when comparing large numbers of people, so some women's brains are larger than the average whereas some men's are smaller. These differences partly reflect the fact that men are generally bigger and taller than women, but they are not related to differences in intelligence.

Men and women's brains also differ in overall composition. Male brains tend to have a slightly higher proportion of white matter, whereas those of females have a higher proportion of grey matter in most parts of the cerebral cortex. Consequently, the cortex is slightly thicker in women's brains than in men's and, according to several studies, is slightly more convoluted as well. There are also sex differences in the size of individual brain structures. The hippocampus, a structure involved in memory formation, is on average larger in men than in women, as is the amygdala, which is also involved in memory, as well as emotions.

Another sexual variation is found in a structure called the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus. The function of this tiny structure is unknown, but research from four different laboratories has repeatedly found that it is almost twice as large in males than in females. It has also been linked to sexual orientation and gender identity: one study showed that it is more than twice as large in heterosexual males than in homosexual males, where it more closely resembles that of women; another found that it is smaller in male-to-female transsexuals, and larger in female-to-male transsexuals. These studies have been criticized for their small sample sizes, and the findings have not been confirmed.

Stereotypes and myths
Numerous studies show subtle differences in male and female behaviour and in cognitive functions, too. Men tend to be more aggressive and outperform women on mental tasks involving spatial skills such as mental rotation, whereas women tend to be more empathetic and perform better on verbal memory and language tasks. Findings like these are often exaggerated to reinforce the stereotypes that women are bad at reverse parking and that they love to chat!

In some cases, individual studies purporting to show sex differences in certain tasks are misappropriated. For example, according to a tiny postmortem study published in 1982, the corpus callosum, the massive bundle of nerve fibres connecting the two brain hemispheres, is proportionally larger in women than in men. This was widely reported to mean that women are better at multitasking, even though subsequent work has failed to replicate the results. A more recent study showed that women are marginally better than men at paying attention to sounds presented to both ears simultaneously – this was interpreted by some as evidence that 'men don't listen'.

Many of these claims are accompanied by the assertion that the observed differences between men and women's brains are 'hard-wired' and, therefore, irreversible. We now know, however, that brain structure and function change in response to experience, so any observed differences between the brains of men and women could[/color=red] also be due to differences in upbringing and socialization. To date, though, very little research has been done to investigate how different nurturing styles might influence brain development.

Box: The extreme male brain hypothesis
People with autism tend to perform poorly on tests of empathizing, or the ability to put oneself in somebody else's shoes, but do well on tests of systematizing, or finding repeating patterns. Similarly, women tend to score higher on the empathy scale, and men on the systematizing scale. These observations led one researcher to propose the highly controversial 'extreme male brain' hypothesis of autism. The hypothesis states that autism is an extreme form of the normal male cognitive profile, which occurs as a result of high testosterone levels in the womb. Accordingly, people with autism can be considered as 'hyper-systematizers' who focus more on patterns and fine details than on other people's thoughts and actions. The extreme male brain hypothesis has been used as an explanation for why autism is four times more prevalent in males than in females, and why people with autism can excel in disciplines such as maths and engineering.

emphasis added by me.

Psychology Today -- Men And Women Are The Same Species

Agustín Fuentes, Ph.D.

OK, we all know that men and women do not always see eye to eye. We can have different goals, desires, ideas and actions … sometimes. Other times, we are very much in synch. If you stop and think a bit about biology, it turns out that men and women are a lot more similar than most of us realize. In this blog post, I am going to suggest that sometimes focusing on the similarities (or better put, the "overlaps" wink between males and females can help us towards a better understanding of where behavioral differences actually come from.

First, let's acknowledge the core differences in biology between males and females. These are evolutionarily, and practically, important and they do matter. Females have babies (gestate and give birth) and lactate, and males do not. Males are, on average, about 10 to 15 percent larger than females and tend to have greater upper body strength. Males’ brains grow for a bit longer and are a bit larger than females. But remember, as long as it is a healthy human brain (anywhere between 1,000 and 2,000 cubic centimeters) size does not relate to function. There are also some skeletal differences between men and women due to childbirth (wider pelvis) and male size/musculature (more rugged developments on male bones). Most of you reading this already know these differences … but do you know about the similarities?

Our hormones are the same. They function the same ways and we all have the same hormones … there are no “male” or “female” hormones. There is some important variation in hormone levels and patterns, and there are some differences in how the hormones interact with male and female bodies. On average, men tend to have a higher resting levels of some androgens (like testosterone), and females may have higher levels of certain reproductive hormones like Follicle Stimulating Hormone or Estradiol at certain times in their menstrual cycles. However, these same reproductive hormones also work in men and are involved in the process of sperm production. There is substantial overlap in the process and patterns of our entire endocrine system.

Our brains are the same. Aside from the slight size differences and the possibility of some differences in an area called the straight gyrus, there are no reliably and repeatedly demonstrated morphological brain differences between the sexes. Now, this is not to say that there is not a great deal of variation in brains across our species or that in some cases adult males’ and females’ brains can react differently to stimulus; there is a lot of variation in neurological structure and probably some in function … but it is primarily across individuals, not sexes.

Genitals? Most people think that male and female genitals are about as different as can be: p***s = male and v****a = female. But even this basic dichotomy is not really correct: the genitals emerge from the same mass of embryonic tissue. For the first six weeks of development the tissue masses develop identically. At about six to seven weeks, depending on whether the fetus has XX or XY chromosomes (usually), the tissues start to differentiate. One part of the tissues begins to form the clitoris or p***s and another forms the labia or scrotum. Another area begins to form into either the testes or the ovaries. This means that physiologically, male and female genitals are made of the same stuff and work in similar ways.

What about sexual behavior? In general, humans have a lot of sex, they have it in a variety of different ways, and most importantly, males AND females both have complex sexual lives. Substantive recent overviews of sexual behavior show few major differences between males and females in sexual activity: Men and women have more or less the same amount of sex in the same kinds of ways across the lifespan (remember, it does take two to tango). But there are some important differences. For example, married women report lower interest in sex with their husbands the longer they’ve been with them, and younger men report higher frequencies of masturbation and interest in visual pornography. But are these primarily biological differences, or is something else going on? We still have a lot to learn about sexuality … and as with many other areas it looks like varen individuals, not between sexes.

There is no doubt that our evolutionary histories result in important differences between the sexes. But these same histories and biology also result in core similarities between the sexes that are equally as important in understanding our lives. Biological differences between males and females can relate to behavioral dissimilarities (such as in physical aggression and aspects of reproduction), but the majority of our biological characteristics (like our brains) reveal that males and females are much more similar than they are different.

So why do we almost always try to explain behavior by implicating biological (evolutionary) differences between the sexes? Could it be that our perceptions of what is “natural” for the sexes is biased? Why don’t we try to start some of our inquiries into human nature with a level playing field? Let’s not assume that there is a relevant sex difference until one actually emerges from the data.

Individual variation in our species is really important and the fact that the sexes overlap as much, if not more, than they differ should tell us something about how to ask questions about human nature. Misrepresentation of human biology and evolutionary patterns in males and females by focusing only on the differences while ignoring the overlaps facilitates a myopic view that inhibits good science.



Here are some good readings on this topic:

A. Fausto-Sterling (2012) Sex/Gender: biology in a social world. Routledge Press & 2000), Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality

L. Eliot (2009) Pink brain Blue brain. Houhgton Mifflin Harcourt

Herbenick, D., Reece, M., Schick, V., Sanders, S.A., Dodge, B., Fortenberry, J.D. (2010) Sexual behavior in the united states: results from a national probability sample of men and women ages 14-94. J. Sex Med. 7(suppl. 5):255-265

R.M. Jordan-Young (2010) Brainstorm: the flaws in the science of sex differences. Harvard University Press

Z. Tang-Martinez (2000), Paradigms and primates: Bateman’s principle, passive females, and perspectives from other taxa, in S. C. Strum and L. M. Fedigan, eds., Primate Encounters: Models of Science, Gender, and Society, pp. 261–74;

M. Borgerhoff-Mulder and K. Rauch (2009), Sexual conflict in humans: Variations and solutions, Evolutionary Anthropology 18: 201–14.

J. L. Wood, D. Heitmiller, N. C. Andreasen, and P. Nopoulos (200 cool , Morphology of the ventral frontal cortex: relationship to femininity and social cognition, Cerebral Cortex 18: 534–40.

K. Bishop and D. Wahlsten (1997), Sex differences in the human corpus callosum: Myth or reality? Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews 21(5): 581–601.

J. Shibley Hyde (2005), The gender similarities hypothesis, American Psychologist 60(6): 581–92.

J. Archer (2009a), Does sexual selection explain human sex differences in aggression? Behavioral and Brain Sciences 32: 249–311



J. Shibley Hyde (2005), The gender similarities hypothesis, American Psychologist 60(6): 581–92.

J. Archer (2009a), Does sexual selection explain human sex differences in aggression? Behavioral and Brain Sciences 32: 249–311

how's that for evidence? wink

The videos didn't load for me but I read those studies, and both of them say two things:

1.) Males and females ARE different. However, as far as we know, those differences are exaggerated by people/media/etc (or could be related to something outside sex).

2.) All the studies done so far are not reputable for one reason or another, so we have a long way to go before we can answer just how different the sexes are reliably. The brains may or may not be as different as we think they are.


So you, in effect, have proven nothing...

If you'd actually read them you would know that they say this:

Our hormones are the same. They function the same ways and we all have the same hormones … there are no “male” or “female” hormones.


And this:

Our brains are the same. Aside from the slight size differences and the possibility of some differences in an area called the straight gyrus, there are no reliably and repeatedly demonstrated morphological brain differences between the sexes.

Both of those refute your claim that men and women have different hormones and different brains.

you deciding they're 'not reputable' just because they refute your claim doesn't make you right. Size and composition =/= thinking differently. Now you are going to have to prove your claims, since you're still clinging to them.

I put the parts of your studies that you completely ignored in red.

If you'd read what I said, I wasn't saying your view was wrong. I was saying that all your sources proved was that there is no proof of either side being right.

edit: I'm also not the person you were arguing with before. My points 1 & 2 were me summarizing your articles. My only opinion on what you posted was that you didn't actually prove anything.

edit2: But since I'm now into this subject. I will state my view.
I think men and women inherently process things differently. But I also think a lot of the stereotypes are blown out of proportion (so I mostly agree with that first article you quoted).

But your second article is just laughable. First, let's start with the author. She's a PhD, but her PhD is in anthropology. She can certainly talk about some sex differences, but when it comes to the brain, she doesn't know s**t. The first article is written by Mo Costandi, and he has actually studied Neuroscience, unlike Fuentes.

Next, she just writes it in a way that is her opinion. "may," "can," "might," "a bit," these are all BSing terms to say "I don't actually know, but I'm going to word it in such a way so you agree with me by influencing your opinion."

Don't get me wrong, Costandi has some of this too, but Fuentes's is more problemetic because she has not studied Neuroscience. Which is the entire point of your argument right? Activity in the brain??

Finally, this one's the ******** gold mine. This quote.

Quote:

Our hormones are the same. They function the same ways and we all have the same hormones … there are no “male” or “female” hormones.

No s**t we all have the same hormones. The differences is how MUCH of each hormone each sex has. And Fuentes herself admits that we don't actually know how these differing amounts influence people. But just admitting that hormones do influence certain things admits that there's differences in the sexes!

Nobody's saying Males have X testosterone so males always do Y. They're saying Males generally have X testosterone and X testosterone predisposes males to doing Y. So while technically the difference isn't "because they're male" it's actually "because they have X testosterone" which, surprise surprise, people who have X testosterone are usually ******** male.

This quote (about us having the same hormones) is so problemetic because you've effectively stated there's no difference between rain or a flood or a tsunami because OH IT'S ALL JUST WATER!!

I mean, that's technically correct, the best kind of correct apparently, but to ignore that rain is not inherently dangerous but tsunamis and floods can kill people would be pretty stupid.

[SirPuzzle]

MercurysJosiegirl

SirPuzzle

You get the society you deserve.

Liberals never call out minorities for their behavior, they never call out poor people for bad behavior, they constantly rip on the rich/financially well off and constantly talk about how awesome poor people are compared to rich people.

I am going to go out on a limb and assume this remark is in regards to the men they showed in the short clip of the video all being minorities. If you Google it and read the explanation from the people who made the video, they state that white men did it too, a lot of it happened off camera though so it didn't make it into the clip. They edited it to remove them, whether or not they realized doing so would leave the impression that its only minority males who do this is not something I can answer. Only they can.

1. They weren't all minorities, just most of them were. There were white men in the video who catcalled.

2. You must have missed the part where I said that this is due to poor people, it's just that minorities are a disproportionate part of poor people, hence why liberals are hesitant to criticize them for anything.

3. You also must have missed the part where I pointed out the people who don't do this in disproportionate numbers are middle/high class privileged white males, the very kind liberals love to bash 24/7. Not all white males are middle/high class, so my statement is excluding lower class white males to make a point.

4. I bet the only reason they said that is so they wouldn't be called racist. This video was made by a liberal organization, of course liberals are going to fabricate a story about white males doing bad things. It's what they always do.

[SirPuzzle]

Bornes

MercurysJosiegirl

Bornes

MercurysJosiegirl

SamaSenseiSenpai

But, our brains operate different (plus all the hormone differences).

This is actually untrue.

I am just going to post the information I previously asked for elsewhere, because I'd disagreed when someone said our brains didn't work differently,and I was proven incorrect.

5th Dimension Morning

The Guardian -- Male Brain vs Female Brain

emphasis added by me.

Psychology Today -- Men And Women Are The Same Species

how's that for evidence? wink

The videos didn't load for me but I read those studies, and both of them say two things:

1.) Males and females ARE different. However, as far as we know, those differences are exaggerated by people/media/etc (or could be related to something outside sex).

2.) All the studies done so far are not reputable for one reason or another, so we have a long way to go before we can answer just how different the sexes are reliably. The brains may or may not be as different as we think they are.


So you, in effect, have proven nothing...

If you'd actually read them you would know that they say this:

Our hormones are the same. They function the same ways and we all have the same hormones … there are no “male” or “female” hormones.


And this:

Our brains are the same. Aside from the slight size differences and the possibility of some differences in an area called the straight gyrus, there are no reliably and repeatedly demonstrated morphological brain differences between the sexes.

Both of those refute your claim that men and women have different hormones and different brains.

you deciding they're 'not reputable' just because they refute your claim doesn't make you right. Size and composition =/= thinking differently. Now you are going to have to prove your claims, since you're still clinging to them.

I put the parts of your studies that you completely ignored in red.

If you'd read what I said, I wasn't saying your view was wrong. I was saying that all your sources proved was that there is no proof of either side being right.

edit: I'm also not the person you were arguing with before. My points 1 & 2 were me summarizing your articles. My only opinion on what you posted was that you didn't actually prove anything.

edit2: But since I'm now into this subject. I will state my view.
I think men and women inherently process things differently. But I also think a lot of the stereotypes are blown out of proportion (so I mostly agree with that first article you quoted).

But your second article is just laughable. First, let's start with the author. She's a PhD, but her PhD is in anthropology. She can certainly talk about some sex differences, but when it comes to the brain, she doesn't know s**t. The first article is written by Mo Costandi, and he has actually studied Neuroscience, unlike Fuentes.

Next, she just writes it in a way that is her opinion. "may," "can," "might," "a bit," these are all BSing terms to say "I don't actually know, but I'm going to word it in such a way so you agree with me by influencing your opinion."

Don't get me wrong, Costandi has some of this too, but Fuentes's is more problemetic because she has not studied Neuroscience. Which is the entire point of your argument right? Activity in the brain??

Finally, this one's the ******** gold mine. This quote.

Quote:

Our hormones are the same. They function the same ways and we all have the same hormones … there are no “male” or “female” hormones.

No s**t we all have the same hormones. The differences is how MUCH of each hormone each sex has. And Fuentes herself admits that we don't actually know how these differing amounts influence people. But just admitting that hormones do influence certain things admits that there's differences in the sexes!

Nobody's saying Males have X testosterone so males always do Y. They're saying Males generally have X testosterone and X testosterone predisposes males to doing Y. So while technically the difference isn't "because they're male" it's actually "because they have X testosterone" which, surprise surprise, people who have X testosterone are usually ******** male.

This quote (about us having the same hormones) is so problemetic because you've effectively stated there's no difference between rain or a flood or a tsunami because OH IT'S ALL JUST WATER!!

I mean, that's technically correct, the best kind of correct apparently, but to ignore that rain is not inherently dangerous but tsunamis and floods can kill people would be pretty stupid.

Arguing with religious fanatics is a waste of time.

[Vardoger]

SirPuzzle

Arguing with religious fanatics is a waste of time.

She doesn't seem like a fanatic to me. Just someone who doesn't know how to interpret articles.

I'm upset because I really wanted her articles to prove what she said they proved.
I didn't even discount her opinion originally, just the articles. And at first I let it slip because she probably thought I was who she was arguing with earlier.
But then I had to talk about the really ******** up "same hormones" quote.
How the crap did that article even get published??

I am just disappointed in the whole thing. I was willing to change my opinion.


edit: Did you get more than one quote notification for this post?

[SirPuzzle]

Bornes

SirPuzzle

Arguing with religious fanatics is a waste of time.

She doesn't seem like a fanatic to me. Just someone who doesn't know how to read scientific articles properly.
I'm upset because I really wanted her articles to prove what she said they proved.
I didn't even discount her opinion, just the articles. And at first I let it slip because she probably thought I was who she was arguing with earlier.
But then I had to talk about the really ******** up "same hormones" post.
How the crap did that article even get published??

I've argued with her before over Obamacare, she is a fanatic.

Also another important point is the way liberals frame this argument is dishonest or flawed. Their line of reasoning has a non sequitur in it.

Basically what the liberals argue is that there is no such thing as a male brain and a female brain, and therefore based upon that "fact" there is no aggregate differences between the population of males and females and their brains. So any behavioral differences between these two groups is all due to environment (culture, gender roles, etc, etc).

Well I quoted "fact" because I don't know if that is really true or not, but it actually doesn't matter anyways because even if it is true that there is no such thing as a male brain and female brain, they are still jumping to their conclusion in an illogical fashion.

It does not follow logically that because there is no male and female brain that therefore there is no aggregate differences between men and women in terms of their brains as a population. This is a fallacious argument because it is ignoring distribution.

Unless if the liberal believes in the blank slate theory (that all people's brains are blank slates, are equal. In which case if they believe this then they don't know anything about neuroscience, psychology, they also are either a complete moron or are a super religious fanatic) that means he/she believes that people's brains on an individual level are different. My brain is different than your's for example.

So yes if you were to graph people's brains, you'd see a distribution and differences between people's brains. Well the point is that if you were to compare the brains men have to brains women have, you'd see a different distribution, meaning there would be aggregate differences between men and women's brains.

Their argument on this topic is analogous to this argument on height "There are men who are 4'9 and there are women who are 7 feet tall, therefore there's no difference in height between men and women" everyone would see the flaw in this. Yes there are very tall women and very short men, but that doesn't mean that therefore there is no aggregate differences in height between men and women. Men on average are taller than women. That doesn't mean a tall height is something that is only a characteristic that males have though, it just means on average men tend to be taller than women, and the people who are really tall tend to be men.

The same is true with brains, humans have all kinds of combinations of brains and you can find men and women with all these different combinations of brains. That does not mean though that the distribution is equal between men and women.

This is what liberals always want to ignore though, they never focus on distribution when it conflicts with their dogma. They only ever bring in the distribution as a variable when it supports their belief (I.E. women represent lower than 50% of CEO's and members of Congress even though they're 50% of the population. Blacks are imprisoned at disproportionate rates relative to their population. There are extremists in all religions) They instead want to go with the sophist route by framing the debate in a dishonest way by arguing over "male" and "female" brains.

As for how did that article get published, it was written by an anthropologist that's how. That field is also tainted with dogma and liberal ideology too. "Cultural anthropology" is a joke of a field, at least forensic anthropology has some legitimacy to it though because it actually incorporates a legitimate science (biology). Cultural anthropology is akin to sociology, it's a joke.

[Vardoger]

SirPuzzle

I agree with you except for your need to inject politics into this. Let's not pretend this BS only happens with Liberals. Every side has an agenda they're trying to push, not just liberals.

[SirPuzzle]

Bornes

SirPuzzle

I agree with you except for your need to inject politics into this. Let's not pretend this BS only happens with Liberals. Every side has an agenda they're trying to push, not just liberals.

I don't deny that every side has an agenda to push. For example it's very clear that the right-wing is putting out propaganda to deny the reality of anthropogenic climate change. There's also books written by right-wingers who want to deny the reality of the U.S. committing war crimes in the past.

The point is though that academia is overly represented by people with liberal leanings and liberal agenda's, so in academia it's liberal propaganda that is an issue, not right-wing/conservative propaganda.

The only field that I'm aware of that may have some right-wing bias in it is economics, but I don't know enough about high level economics to say anything about that beyond "it's possible."

I inject politics into this because it's a variable that unfortunately you cannot ignore when it comes to anything that involves humans anymore. Anything that involves humans whether it be genetics, or anthropology, or sociology, or psychology, etc, etc, is tainted by politics.

I wish that weren't the case, I wish people stuck by enlightenment principles and made the distinction between moral claims and empirical/factual propositions, but we don't live in a world like that.

Also yes I am going to inject politics in this when you have a group of people who are muddying up academic fields and ignoring the scientific method in order to reach a priori conclusions they have based upon moral values they have. I dislike it when people masquerade their ideology as science when it isn't.

[Vardoger]

SirPuzzle

I would rather not get into a political debate, but I hope you realize here that you are also an extremist.

[SirPuzzle]

Bornes

SirPuzzle

I would rather not get into a political debate, but I hope you realize here that you are also an extremist.

Yes I am an extremist, scientism is usually used in a pejorative way but it's pretty much my worldview. I also believe that academia's main/sole focus should be on studying positive (factual) propositions of reality. There should be a divide between academics who make normative/moral arguments to academics who do research on descriptive claims of reality.

Moral assertions have no value in assessing factual claims about reality. Anybody who engages in mixing their moral beliefs with determining empirical reality is engaging in sophistry and not to mention is committing a logical fallacy.

Yet in the 60's and since then we've had people entering in academics, mostly in the social sciences and humanities even though it's seeping into certain scientific fields as well who go in there with a moral agenda to change reality "for the better." They are not living up to the enlightenment value of what it is to be a true scientist.

A true scientist does not allow their morals to conflict with their research on reality.

So yeah I am an extremist, because I think people who don't abide by the simple principle of separating fact from morality are not legitimate thinkers in my opinion. In fact anybody who does that in my opinion is dishonest in my book and does not care about reality at all, in which case I am opposed to them in a philosophical, personal, and political sense.

[Vardoger]

SirPuzzle

Did you used to have another Gaia account?
Were you the one that posted about IQ differences between blacks and whites and then the thread got overrun with people claiming the study was racist?