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Veesionary's avatar

Grabber

I have nothing to say, since most of it has been said already.

However, one person said that a 15 year old should have an abortion, since she's still a baby herself. There is such a thing as not having sex you know. They shouldn't wine about giving birth and being pregnant, when it's they're bad decision making that got her into that situation.
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I completely agree with those arguing that it is a woman's body, therefore it should be her choice.

I adamantly believe that religion needs to stay away from politics. The last time politics was run by religion, innocent people were burned at the stake. Just saying. lol
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Veesionary
I have nothing to say, since most of it has been said already.

However, one person said that a 15 year old should have an abortion, since she's still a baby herself. There is such a thing as not having sex you know. They shouldn't wine about giving birth and being pregnant, when it's they're bad decision making that got her into that situation.


Rape.

If this passes, rape victims will most likely be forced to carry the baby. Yeah, that kind of throws your 'just don't have sex' idea out the window. =/
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Um, maybe because it's the woman's body DERP DERP.
If men had to go through body changes, exhaustion, pain, & all sorts of other factors that go into pregnancy, dontcha think that it would be both sides? BUT NOPE, men can go ahead & walk away if they please.
Hell, FORCING WOMEN TO GIVE BIRTH IS PLAIN WRONG.
Abortions are not all results of "recklessness". Even if it is, who gives a flying F U C K ?
It is none of your GODAMN BUSINESS.

If you don't want an abortion, DON'T GET ONE.

It's just like, with this - if you don't like gay marriage, THEN DON'T MARRY SOMEONE OF THE SAME GENDER.

&, if you go back only 50 or so years ago - if you don't like interracial marriage, THEN DON'T MARRY A PERSON OF A DIFFERENT RACE.

D U H

D U H

D U H!


HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND? WHY ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO FORCE WOMEN'S RIGHTS BACK IN TIME?


IT'S TWO THOUSAND F U C K I N G TWELVE, NOT NINETEEN FIFTY PEOPLE
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Also, by saying "don't have sex if you're not ready to be a mother" is like saying don't eat when your hungry.

it's INSTINCT.

I mean, SURE, if I could control it, don't you think I WOULD?
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Because it is a Woman's choice. Just because a man helped create the fetus does not give him authority over my body.

I'm not saying they can't have opinions. They can, they are allowed to give input but ultimately it will be the woman's decision because it's her body.

That's why abortion is a Woman's choice.
If a guy wants to have a kid, but a lady doesn't want to, then rather than forcing her to carry a baby she doesn't want for nine months, he could:
a) talk to her about it / try to persuade her
b) consider adoption
c) enter a relationship with a lady that actually wants to
or
d) consider a surrogate mother

No one should be legally obligated to carry a kid they don't want. Being pregnant is more than just carrying around a baby for a couple of months. It affects a woman's health, career, and lifestyle.
Wise Old Rut's avatar

Wealthy Giver

My argument to all sides.

PRO CHOICE:
As a man, it is not within my ability to imagine the circumstances a woman would need to where she would justify an abortion, but if she believes it is necessary to do so than so be it. I have no right to any woman's body any more than they do my body. I am a creator of a child so I have a very personal connection to this topic and know what I speak of when I say that even though I love my son with all my heart, it was not my call. The only two people it matters is the woman and the residing doctor (if there will be a "one of them will die" situation an abortion may be the doctors choice) I do not support the funding cut to planned parenthood because they do much more than simply perform abortions. They are essential to a woman's health and checkups. Also, I do not support Romney's idea of letting employers choose whether or not their employees can receive abortions (if the insurance is through the company) so really I would have to say the current state is where it should stay.

OPPOSITION:
If you are going to use the "youre not a woman you dont understand", I would point you to the countless mothers who believe they know whats best when it comes to circumcisions. Surprised? Shouldnt be, its an obvious topic of conversation in this ball park and for some strange reason, even though women dont take into consideration the HORRIBLE effects it may cause (with/without), they act as though they themselves have had a p***s at one point or another.
Also, I do not support it being used as a plan "c" option, and even though most women (at least I hope most) wouldnt do that, there still some that would. If this conversation is directed towards the debates and not just in general, than I would have to tell you that it is not the taxpayers responsibility to cover the costs of your lack of birth control, and no matter what your argument is, there were higher steps to take. (BC + condom for instance)
Wise Old Rut's avatar

Wealthy Giver

Nevermind my statement. This thread is not on par with the amount of intelligence and foresight, as well as the acceptance of responsibility it takes to talk about this.

No, this isnt some stupid womens rights issue, this is the future of our culture, and it does not fall just to the woman, because the tax payers are the ones footing your bill. The men are the ones giving half of the life into the child, and s**t if you cant handle the responsibility it takes to raise a child, STOP HAVING SEX. Its so hard, cry me a river. You have no idea how dumb of a statement it is to say its an urge and I cant control it... think Im wrong? "So rape is ok with you?" comes to mind. I mean... its an urge and shouldnt be held in check right?

No, a 15 yr old should not be forced to have an abortion because "she herself is a child" or some crap, HOWEVER I do expect her parents to know what happened. "Oh no, she might get beaten!" is going to be your response, and if she were in that situation the LEAST of your concerns should be whether or not she gets an abortion, and it should be even if she didnt, she would probably not live long enough to have the baby. She should be taken out of the situation regardless of being with child.

You all are looking at this the completely wrong way.
PuddleInk's avatar

Thieving Pumpkin

LuckyPinball


Both of your posts are excellent! I'm sorry that it feels like it isn't worth the effort to post something that is something other than more ' I'm better than you because you are a doodoo face' comments, or other self-entitled bulls-----t.


But I can add at least my opinions of this touchy subject:

First: Yes, it is the right of the individual to make a call about their own body, when they are of a safe and sound mind. This doesn't mean that someone else should make the very important call in the case of abortion all the time, but in the case of the life of the mother vs. the life of a child...I would save the life of a mother. She ( maybe) has a chance to create life again with the right partner ( in case of rape or unintentional insemination during sex... teenagers, I'm looking at you), or through artificial insemination...or just go through an adoption clinic and other means.

That said, it is her responsibility to consult with her partner ( mate, husband, wife, etc...) and ask what they think on it. These are all case by case scenarios and social courtesies that should be followed. While some may argue that the partner does not, should not, and cannot hold any opinion on the woman who is carrying, they still hold emotional sway. Again, if the woman chooses not to listen to them or chose to listen to them, it is her choice, but her responsibility to make the choice to tell them of her decision.

This falls to the 'responsibility' area. . . . Unfortunately, I can start telling tales and tales of irresponsible teenagers that thought sex was just a game and thought birth control AND the morning after pill were candy. Oh and abortions were just something to get rid of the unintended consequences because sex really is a joke and just a game. Remember, this is just all that I have observed, thus my opinion and faulty recollection...and really, who remembers every detail from High School? They will all be ignored, especially the tale of the girl that ran away from home to go to denver to get a 6 week abortion because she couldn't keep her legs shut, or the countless pregnant girls wandering the halls that couldn't even solve a simple algebraic equation that the rest of the class had mastered three quarters ago... Let us not even touch literacy. I might offend someone.


It is a maturity and responsibility issue. Few understand that an abortion is hard on the woman's body....Especially young girls that are all for it. It takes a while to recover. Do a quick search on Abortion. You'll find out after you weed through the search results. Young teens shouldn't be having sex not because they aren't physically mature, it is a mental maturity.

Which Gaia is not the right area to discuss it in. ( Well, this forum isn't the right place to discuss it in...even if it is a really potent political issue that deserves its own time in the sun without two word answers and picketers).


I feel incredibly sorry for all of you that think this is a black and white issue and one side has to conquer the other with laws that just ...don't make any logical sense. I'm sorry that people can't sit down, civily, and take the time to discuss both sides and come away with an ideal case by case to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening ( aside from not having sex, because apparently some people here can't keep their legs crossed). And I'm sorry that Abortion is a topic that is filled with hateful slander instead of helpful solutions.
LuckyPinball
Nevermind my statement. This thread is not on par with the amount of intelligence and foresight, as well as the acceptance of responsibility it takes to talk about this.

No, this isnt some stupid womens rights issue, this is the future of our culture, and it does not fall just to the woman, because the tax payers are the ones footing your bill. The men are the ones giving half of the life into the child, and s**t if you cant handle the responsibility it takes to raise a child, STOP HAVING SEX. Its so hard, cry me a river. You have no idea how dumb of a statement it is to say its an urge and I cant control it... think Im wrong? "So rape is ok with you?" comes to mind. I mean... its an urge and shouldnt be held in check right?

No, a 15 yr old should not be forced to have an abortion because "she herself is a child" or some crap, HOWEVER I do expect her parents to know what happened. "Oh no, she might get beaten!" is going to be your response, and if she were in that situation the LEAST of your concerns should be whether or not she gets an abortion, and it should be even if she didnt, she would probably not live long enough to have the baby. She should be taken out of the situation regardless of being with child.

You all are looking at this the completely wrong way.


My first problem with this is the statement that "if you cant [sic] handle the responsibility it takes to raise a child, STOP HAVING SEX".

Have you ever heard of childless couples? (Or men/women separately, for that matter.) Just because someone is having sex without the desire to procreate doesn't make them incapable of being responsible. How they choose to handle that responsibility is up to the woman. She is the one who is LEGALLY responsible for choosing whether or not to proceed with the termination procedure. So, because it is LEGALLY the choice of ONLY women (and, I suppose if she is a minor, her parents), it then becomes a women's rights issue. One could argue that it is a human's rights issue, however I really don't care to do so because I think it can be universally agreed upon that we should have the right to our own bodies.

Another thing on this--it is my right as a human being to decide with whom and how many times I will have sex. It is not up to you to decide whether or not I am ready to have a child, or give me moral counsel on whether or not I should be participating in sexual intercourse. Slut-shaming is not ok, nor is telling single women who choose to have sex without commitment that they are irresponsible. (That is, if they are taking the necessary measures to protect themselves from STIs, HIV, and pregnancy--but do remember that contraceptives sometimes fail). Sexual promiscuity is not innately irresponsible, and those who participate in that lifestyle should not be treated as inherently irresponsible actors.


The second thing about this that bothers me is the "rape is equal to sexual urges" argument. I would like to point out that sex is not illegal, and both/all parties consent. No one is physically or mentally being violated. Rape is different BECAUSE of that. I do not know many people myself who are pro-rape because it is commonly known that rape is UNWANTED sexual action upon one's body. Your argument doesn't work because the two urges cannot equate. To say it simply, sexual urges as a teenager generally don't result in years of therapy and Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder, and therefore the urge to rape is not equivalent to the urge to participate in consensual sex. Not even to mention the fact that rapists most commonly have mental/emotional issues, and rape is most commonly about power and not the need to have sex.


Thirdly (and finally), I must disagree with your statement that a fifteen year-old's parents should be involved in her decision on whether or not to have an abortion. Like you said, if you are unable to handle the responsibility to have a child, then do not have sex. Thinking like that, we should also assume that if she has had sex, she must also be mentally competent enough to decide her own future, no? I think that no one should force a teenage girl to tell her parents whether or not she is having an abortion. Chances are, she knows what the future holds either way, there is no need to force her to cope with the horror of having to explain this to her parents while she makes one of the most difficult decisions of her life-- a decision that affects her more that anyone else in this situation. The best that can be done is to giver her all of the facts possible, make her aware of her options, offer her mental counsel, and let her decide. However, I do believe that someone over the age of eighteen should be required to transport the girl before and after her procedure. This also allows for someone to know what happened if something goes wrong, and gives the clinics someone to sign liability issues onto.

Not that I think arguing abortion actually matters. The issue should not be a legal one. It is an issue that should be decided on by people themselves for themselves. Preferably with truthful information.
HDMI's avatar

Omnipresent Elder

T3h Jinji
Because it's not your body.

And by "your", I don't just mean men. I mean anybody other than me. You don't have the right to make my medical decisions for me.

See? I don't hate men. You can all get your damn hands off my uterus.



HDMI

Phasmatis of aer sand quod mare Convoco aborior Angelus solvo Obvius ventus transporto. . .
Is poema poematis Addo nex pro mihi pro meus vicis !

"You can all get your damn hands off my uterus." The only part that matters in this thread. The only part that will ever hold any kind of power.
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The human soul is, not. . .

. . . a rubber ball, it's vulernable, impermanent but stronger then
!
You know and more,valuable

Then you can imagine. D e a t h - Supernatural!
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LuckyPinball
Nevermind my statement. This thread is not on par with the amount of intelligence and foresight, as well as the acceptance of responsibility it takes to talk about this.

No, this isnt some stupid womens rights issue, this is the future of our culture, and it does not fall just to the woman, because the tax payers are the ones footing your bill. The men are the ones giving half of the life into the child, and s**t if you cant handle the responsibility it takes to raise a child, STOP HAVING SEX. Its so hard, cry me a river. You have no idea how dumb of a statement it is to say its an urge and I cant control it... think Im wrong? "So rape is ok with you?" comes to mind. I mean... its an urge and shouldnt be held in check right?

No, a 15 yr old should not be forced to have an abortion because "she herself is a child" or some crap, HOWEVER I do expect her parents to know what happened. "Oh no, she might get beaten!" is going to be your response, and if she were in that situation the LEAST of your concerns should be whether or not she gets an abortion, and it should be even if she didnt, she would probably not live long enough to have the baby. She should be taken out of the situation regardless of being with child.

You all are looking at this the completely wrong way.


My first problem with this is the statement that "if you cant [sic] handle the responsibility it takes to raise a child, STOP HAVING SEX".

Have you ever heard of childless couples? (Or men/women separately, for that matter.) Just because someone is having sex without the desire to procreate doesn't make them incapable of being responsible. How they choose to handle that responsibility is up to the woman. She is the one who is LEGALLY responsible for choosing whether or not to proceed with the termination procedure. So, because it is LEGALLY the choice of ONLY women (and, I suppose if she is a minor, her parents), it then becomes a women's rights issue. One could argue that it is a human's rights issue, however I really don't care to do so because I think it can be universally agreed upon that we should have the right to our own bodies.

Another thing on this--it is my right as a human being to decide with whom and how many times I will have sex. It is not up to you to decide whether or not I am ready to have a child, or give me moral counsel on whether or not I should be participating in sexual intercourse. Slut-shaming is not ok, nor is telling single women who choose to have sex without commitment that they are irresponsible. (That is, if they are taking the necessary measures to protect themselves from STIs, HIV, and pregnancy--but do remember that contraceptives sometimes fail). Sexual promiscuity is not innately irresponsible, and those who participate in that lifestyle should not be treated as inherently irresponsible actors.


The second thing about this that bothers me is the "rape is equal to sexual urges" argument. I would like to point out that sex is not illegal, and both/all parties consent. No one is physically or mentally being violated. Rape is different BECAUSE of that. I do not know many people myself who are pro-rape because it is commonly known that rape is UNWANTED sexual action upon one's body. Your argument doesn't work because the two urges cannot equate. To say it simply, sexual urges as a teenager generally don't result in years of therapy and Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder, and therefore the urge to rape is not equivalent to the urge to participate in consensual sex. Not even to mention the fact that rapists most commonly have mental/emotional issues, and rape is most commonly about power and not the need to have sex.


Thirdly (and finally), I must disagree with your statement that a fifteen year-old's parents should be involved in her decision on whether or not to have an abortion. Like you said, if you are unable to handle the responsibility to have a child, then do not have sex. Thinking like that, we should also assume that if she has had sex, she must also be mentally competent enough to decide her own future, no? I think that no one should force a teenage girl to tell her parents whether or not she is having an abortion. Chances are, she knows what the future holds either way, there is no need to force her to cope with the horror of having to explain this to her parents while she makes one of the most difficult decisions of her life-- a decision that affects her more that anyone else in this situation. The best that can be done is to giver her all of the facts possible, make her aware of her options, offer her mental counsel, and let her decide. However, I do believe that someone over the age of eighteen should be required to transport the girl before and after her procedure. This also allows for someone to know what happened if something goes wrong, and gives the clinics someone to sign liability issues onto.

Not that I think arguing abortion actually matters. The issue should not be a legal one. It is an issue that should be decided on by people themselves for themselves. Preferably with truthful information.


At age 15, she is legally a minor and anyone having sex with her is, under the laws in some states, considered statutory rape. So sorry. No.
As for her parents being involved, legally yes they are the ones involved. Sorry, but that is the way the laws work in some states and that is why the teenager MUST HAVE parental consent.


@ in general for the sake of clearing up some confusions that may exist from some people:
Also
contraception pills do NOT protect one from STD's or HIV. Condoms do that.
Also
If men don't want kids, they should keep it zipped and stop giving the excuse that they have to stick it.
Karmarsi Kedamoki
Tacopillard
I have a question, what if the father doesn't want to have the kid and have anything to do with it and she does?
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Well then, he'd be mighty worthless.
Or at least that's how I would see it. I mean, use protection if you don't want a child.
However, if they were then it failed well then it's still a tidbit of bad luck. If the lady wants to have it I believe they should. If the guy walks out then he truly isn't worth the time. 3nodding

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Double standards much? Or do you view a woman who gets an abortion as an equal piece of s**t?
Karmarsi Kedamoki's avatar

Timid Member

Old Blue Collar Joe
Double standards much? Or do you view a woman who gets an abortion as an equal piece of s**t?
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no I see them as an equal being. I apologize if my response turned you the wrong way.
I have always seen men and women as equal people, regardless of how different other people may view them. I was only trying to say, let women have their choice. If they have the misfortune of a man who will walk out on them for keeping a baby, then they shouldn't dwell on it. Why? Because they'll one day find a man who will accept and raise the child with them, even if it isn't theirs.
However, I also see women who get an abortion an equal being as well. What a woman decides does not change what I think of them. It's their choice, and with such I respect them and understand if they want to, let them.
Again I apologize if I came off appearing as incompetent or anything sweatdrop

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