Why do people say that ABORTION is a women's choice?

[Doitsu Rutovihhi]

Lord Elwrind

jix-kun

JazziLoveBerry

It takes two to tangle, so why does one person get the choice? Why can't the father have a say in his child's life? Is it selfish to say that men can't choose if their child dies or not? Do you think this is being sexist? Is it selfish for women to kill their child because they don't want to carry it for 9 months?

PLEASE, if you are going to debate, don't be childish with name calling or trying to belittle someone just because they have a difference in opinion. We can have a friendly discussion. If you don't like someone's answer, don't let it emotionally and mentally trouble you. Everyone is not always going to agree. That's something you'll have to get over.

I think it should be a choice made by both parties. A document should be signed by both the mother and the father unless the father is dead or a rapist. OR if the pregnancy poses a serious risk to the mother's health. Just cause a woman doesn't want her kid, doesn't mean a man doesn't want his. And in all honesty, if a woman aborted my baby without my concent, it would pretty much seem like she's saying "******** you".

Not just "******** you" But "******** how you feel. ******** how you feel. ******** what you produce. ******** anything that you have ever aspired toward." I'd be pissed. I mean...seriously, a woman consentually spreads her legs for a man. She should be ready for what might result. Im not against abortion. I just think both parties should be part of the choice. Cause if it came down to it, I would just have a girl carry my kid for as long as it needs to form. Then she can push it out or have it removed. Then, if she still doesn't want it, I can take my kid and I would never have to speak to her again. Now, there are some people that just shouldn't have kids. young teenagers (13-16) shouldn't have them. Parents should control that, cause in the end, parents are going to be the people who actually have to support the kid.

Women need to learn to do things in a timely fashion.

A: don't spread your legs (Best possible option if you don't want my kid)

B: condoms (I use them all the time, every time. If they break, I tend to notice, and I put another one on before continuing.)

C: birth control: Wow...whats so hard about taking a pill?

D: Morning after pill: Maybe there would have been a kid. Maybe not. Now neither of us have to know.

But abortion should be a mutual decision.

you forgot two things

E) man should keep it tucked in (HE has to take responsibility for HIS OWN actions. He does NOT have to stick it)

F) cases of rape and incest are not inclusive

I mentioned rape in the first paragraph, my dear friend. Incest, no, I didn't mention it. But yes, a woman should abort her kid if she sleeps with her brother/cousin/whatever. But..here's a question. What level of stupidity has to posess a person in this day and age to even make them consider the thought of having consentual sex with a family member?

As for keeping it in one's pants. I'm advocating for males who would want to keep their kids. So if HE doesn't want a kid, then he should keep it in his pants. But if he doesn't mind having one, then he doesn't have to abstain from sexual contact.

[lumnata]

Abortion terminates pregnancy. Forced pregnancy is torture. I have been pregnant and birthed two children. I enjoyed my pregnancies more than some women do. Even WITH more pleasant pregnancies, I still consider the notion of making women go through pregnancies and deliveries they did not want to as torture and I cannot condone torture on an emotional and physical level, not to mention a financial level that would come from her having to 1) take time off work at some point, 2) face possible hardship for already having to support any other children, 3) risk something going wrong with the pregnancy that would force her to be bedridden for months. She would also be facing multiple health risks, including the risk of death.

To go through with a pregnancy or not should be a decision that ultimately lies with only the person who would be undergoing it. In an ideal situation, she would accept input from the would-be father, but the final decision should still lie with the woman, and only with the woman.

[tobynwabu]

The choice should indeed be bilateral...
depending on the situation that is!

[lumnata]

Mayor Gravity

How is abortion not a woman's choice?

Because women must always consider what males think before doing anything. Women need male approval before doing something with their bodies that the male might not like, no matter if she is trying to eliminate unbearable conditions that will alter her body permanently, cause months of pain and hardship to her, and pose a threat to her health and her life.

[Doitsu Rutovihhi]

lumnata

Abortion terminates pregnancy. Forced pregnancy is torture. I have been pregnant and birthed two children. I enjoyed my pregnancies more than some women do. Even WITH more pleasant pregnancies, I still consider the notion of making women go through pregnancies and deliveries they did not want to as torture and I cannot condone torture on an emotional and physical level, not to mention a financial level that would come from her having to 1) take time off work at some point, 2) face possible hardship for already having to support any other children, 3) risk something going wrong with the pregnancy that would force her to be bedridden for months. She would also be facing multiple health risks, including the risk of death.

To go through with a pregnancy or not should be a decision that ultimately lies with only the person who would be undergoing it. In an ideal situation, she would accept input from the would-be father, but the final decision should still lie with the woman, and only with the woman.

If a father wants a woman to remain pregnant, he should support her pregnancy. That means paying for it and helping her live through the pain and whatnot. And honestly, I've spoken to multiple women, both of which have had at least one kid. And they stated that in all honesty, giving birth doesn't hurt if they take the drugs. If the woman doesn't want her kid and the man does...well, he should have the right to give that kid a chance in life. And in all honesty, Maternity leave in most jobs falls under "Paid Vacation". In other words, they still get their check.

Also, has anyone ever considered the fact that women aren't actually fighting for equal rights in this subject? In fact, they are fighting for superior rights. I know a few girls who have had kids and now want to force their exes to pay child support. Does anyone question this? Other than me...I don't see much opposition. So. Here's the world I see these women want.

If they don't want a kid: Kill it.

If the man doesn't want a kid: Make his life miserable and live off his money for 18 years. Not to mention the fact that this man will be labelled for the rest of his life with terms like "Sorry" "Good for nothing" and other terms...which will make it difficult for him to actually get into a real relationship and have kids he actually wants.

[lumnata]

Akasha Heartilly

And yes, people have sex recreationally, but if said guy is assuming every women he bangs will keep the child and let him be part of it, then he is in for a rude awakening.

Being on Gaia for seven years now, this topic comes up a lot. But it seems to me that it's just another way to keep women in their "place". I'm not denying that there are indeed men out there who are actually emotionally hurt when it comes to their sex partner having an abortion that the men wishes she hadn't had, but I'd love to know exactly how common this is. I've read about this topic over and over and over again, discussed it here and many other places. I see a lot of this view, but I see few actual experiences from men who have had this happen* and are truly upset about it. Most of the men I have known, or have engaged in discussion with, generally don't want to be single fathers raising a child from birth. Yet, the topic gets treated as though this is some epidemic.

*Not zero, just few. I'm sure that there are men who truly would like to raise the fetuses who would turn into children, and who are traumatized when this does not work out. In fact, I've heard input from such people. My point is that it is very rare, from what I have read, and yet it's treated as a common occurrence.

[Lord Elwrind]

jix-kun

I mentioned rape in the first paragraph, my dear friend. Incest, no, I didn't mention it. But yes, a woman should abort her kid if she sleeps with her brother/cousin/whatever. But..here's a question. What level of stupidity has to posess a person in this day and age to even make them consider the thought of having consentual sex with a family member?

As for keeping it in one's pants. I'm advocating for males who would want to keep their kids. So if HE doesn't want a kid, then he should keep it in his pants. But if he doesn't mind having one, then he doesn't have to abstain from sexual contact.

I didn't see the first paragraph clearly (distracted)

And PLEASE tell me you don't really think a girl really has a choice when being molested by a male family member. As for that question, I wish I could answer that. Or do I even wanna know? Other than that a female (and male child) family members are easy targets for *****.

Keeping in one's pants... do you know how many men cheat on their wives and get these other women pregnant? They don't even care if the woman gets pregnant.
And HOW does a woman say "no" to someone who's got some kind of power over them? Do you know how many women are victimized by those who are "pillars of the community"? Doctors, lawyers, judges... their bosses...
Not all women are partyers or bar hoppers.

[pidgezero_one]

This topic: men with entitlement complexes don't get why they're not a stakeholder in a woman's body. Surprise! rolleyes

[lumnata]

jix-kun

lumnata

Abortion terminates pregnancy. Forced pregnancy is torture. I have been pregnant and birthed two children. I enjoyed my pregnancies more than some women do. Even WITH more pleasant pregnancies, I still consider the notion of making women go through pregnancies and deliveries they did not want to as torture and I cannot condone torture on an emotional and physical level, not to mention a financial level that would come from her having to 1) take time off work at some point, 2) face possible hardship for already having to support any other children, 3) risk something going wrong with the pregnancy that would force her to be bedridden for months. She would also be facing multiple health risks, including the risk of death.

To go through with a pregnancy or not should be a decision that ultimately lies with only the person who would be undergoing it. In an ideal situation, she would accept input from the would-be father, but the final decision should still lie with the woman, and only with the woman.

If a father wants a woman to remain pregnant, he should support her pregnancy. That means paying for it and helping her live through the pain and whatnot.

So a woman should not only lose bodily autonomy, but she should also lose her financial autonomy as well? She must now become financially dependent (especially in more extreme cases of being bedridden for months) on her torturer. Not only has he now stripped her of the right to not be used as a breeding machine for his benefit and pleasure, but she must now also accept and be supported by someone she likely resents and hates. Basically, the man has TOTAL control over her.

Not to mention, this seems like it would be skewed to where only the wealthiest of men could really afford it. If the woman already has five kids, is a single mom, lives in a home that costs a good bit of money- the man who wants a baby must now be willing to pay for all of that- home, the costs of raising five children, etc.

What happens if she loses her job? Does she get compensated for the hardship that goes along with this? What if she's out of work for over a year after delivery? Is he going to pay for this as well?

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And honestly, I've spoken to multiple women, both of which have had at least one kid. And they stated that in all honesty, giving birth doesn't hurt if they take the drugs.

HAHAHAHAHA. You have obviously never given birth. Do you honestly think shoving a 9lb or so baby out of a v****a doesn't hurt? Do you think all the women who claim that childbirth is so painful are just bullshitting you? I can't believe you even said this. You win most laughable internet post of the day, possibly of the week.

Even if your drugs eliminated ALL pain during delivery (hint: THEY DON'T) have you ever had the skin between your v****a and a*****e ripped or cut, and then stitched together? I have. Have you ever had your abdomen cut open, sewed back together, and then had to recover from it? I have. And both of those are an extra 4-6 weeks of recovery. Both of those are extremely common procedures.

You're ******** nuts if you think birth doesn't hurt... and that doesn't even begin to get into all the pains associated with nine months of pregnancy: the back aches, gaining 35+ pounds in less than a years' time, the nausea, the leg aches from carrying around all that extra weight. Seriously, I can't believe what I just read.

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If the woman doesn't want her kid and the man does...well, he should have the right to give that kid a chance in life. And in all honesty, Maternity leave in most jobs falls under "Paid Vacation". In other words, they still get their check.

If the woman doesn't want her kid and is willing to go through nine months of pregnancy, all the risks that come with it, and then deliver the child, with all the risks that come with that- then sure, the man should be able to raise the kid. If she is not willing to go through that, forcing her to do so would LITERALLY be TORTURE.

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Also, has anyone ever considered the fact that women aren't actually fighting for equal rights in this subject?

There cannot be equality here because MEN CANNOT GIVE BIRTH.

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In fact, they are fighting for superior rights.

No, they are fighting for the right to not be forced to be tortured. Men do not have to fight for this right because they cannot face a similar situation.

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I know a few girls who have had kids and now want to force their exes to pay child support. Does anyone question this? Other than me...I don't see much opposition. So. Here's the world I see these women want.

Bullshit. See: Financial Abortion.

[Doitsu Rutovihhi]

Lord Elwrind

jix-kun

I mentioned rape in the first paragraph, my dear friend. Incest, no, I didn't mention it. But yes, a woman should abort her kid if she sleeps with her brother/cousin/whatever. But..here's a question. What level of stupidity has to posess a person in this day and age to even make them consider the thought of having consentual sex with a family member?

As for keeping it in one's pants. I'm advocating for males who would want to keep their kids. So if HE doesn't want a kid, then he should keep it in his pants. But if he doesn't mind having one, then he doesn't have to abstain from sexual contact.

I didn't see the first paragraph clearly (distracted)

And PLEASE tell me you don't really think a girl really has a choice when being molested by a male family member. As for that question, I wish I could answer that. Or do I even wanna know? Other than that a female (and male child) family members are easy targets for *****.

Keeping in one's pants... do you know how many men cheat on their wives and get these other women pregnant? They don't even care if the woman gets pregnant.
And HOW does a woman say "no" to someone who's got some kind of power over them? Do you know how many women are victimized by those who are "pillars of the community"? Doctors, lawyers, judges... their bosses...
Not all women are partyers or bar hoppers.

Molestation falls under the category of rape in my opinion. When I said Incest, I meant a brother and sister or cousins actually having consentual sex...its disgusting and it happens alot among the mexican population here in Texas. As for women being victimized by pillars of the community. What power does this person REALLY have over a woman? Charges can be pressed against a doctor for sexual misconduct (Not to mention malpractice) if he makes a pass at a patient. Same for Judges, lawyers, and bosses. But if one's personality is really so weak as to be swayed by these things, then one could honestly argue this point on a CASE BY CASE basis. And if a man is married, then sorry, he has no right to a kid that falls out of his wedlock. Cause then he's in the wrong. But as far as men cheating...women cheat just as much as men. They just don't get caught.

[Doitsu Rutovihhi]

lumnata

So...what you're saying here is that all men are sadistic torturers, and all women are saintly creatures? You're saying that there arent hundreds of thousands of women who live off a man's money through America's deffective child support system? All I'm saying is that if I were put in this situation, I might actually want my kid. What if I was a man with a low sperm count and my probability of being able to get a woman pregnant was really low. If that were me, and a woman actually got pregnant with my kid, I'd want it. I'd fight tooth and nail to get it, cause that would possibly be my only chance. Im not saying giving birth doesn't hurt like hell. I'm saying women have told me that its not as bad as most women make it out to be, including my own mother, who only had one kid (Myself).

[lumnata]

jix-kun

lumnata

So...what you're saying here is that all men are sadistic torturers, and all women are saintly creatures? You're saying that there arent hundreds of thousands of women who live off a man's money through America's deffective child support system?

Straw-manning and red herrings. Please try again.

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All I'm saying is that if I were put in this situation, I might actually want my kid. What if I was a man with a low sperm count and my probability of being able to get a woman pregnant was really low. If that were me, and a woman actually got pregnant with my kid, I'd want it. I'd fight tooth and nail to get it, cause that would possibly be my only chance.

So have sex with women who would not damn have abortions. Get a ******** surrogate. I hate to break it to you, but (hypothetical) you are not entitled to a child just because you might have health problems. You don't get to force a woman to carry a baby to term just because of your health problems. Your health problems are YOURS. It's no woman's duty to be tortured just because you feel inadequate for not being able to produce fetuses at rates other men do. I think it's absurd that you and others could possibly believe that you get to trump a woman's right to her own body just because your own reproductive organs don't work optimally.

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Im not saying giving birth doesn't hurt like hell. I'm saying women have told me that its not as bad as most women make it out to be, including my own mother, who only had one kid (Myself).

For some women, no, it's not that bad. If you think that's in any way the norm, you should really talk to more women. I've heard of women having orgasms when they delivered. Most women would not consider childbirth anything CLOSE to that.

[Doitsu Rutovihhi]

lumnata

.

I don't have such physical inadequacies. I was merely stating a hypothetical situation in order to justify certain instances. As for the other topics. Maybe you're right. Though I still believe these things should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Because I believe that such things could seriously affect someone mentally. Maybe not me. But someone out there probably cries at night wishing they had their kid that someone denied them.

but in all honesty, I think its at least a woman's responsibility to communicate such wishes with her partner instead of just saying "Well ******** it. I don't want this thing"

[lumnata]

jix-kun

lumnata

.

I don't have such physical inadequacies. I was merely stating a hypothetical situation in order to justify certain instances. As for the other topics. Maybe you're right. Though I still believe these things should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Because I believe that such things could seriously affect someone mentally. Maybe not me. But someone out there probably cries at night wishing they had their kid that someone denied them.

but in all honesty, I think its at least a woman's responsibility to communicate such wishes with her partner instead of just saying "Well ******** it. I don't want this thing"Excellent. Excepting "reviewed by case-by-case basis" because I don't know fully what you mean, I agree with everything you've said here. I absolutely agree that women should talk about an abortion with the man who donated sperm, assuming that's reasonable to do (she knew who it was, he's not abusive, etc. There are probably a few more cases I could think of where I wouldn't agree, but generally, sure.)

When possible, she should indeed talk to him, but ultimately, it should still be HER decision. As an analogy (similar, but not precisely the situation, for there is no direct equivalent thanks to biology), there's a hypothetical husband and wife, or boyfriend and girlfriend. Male wants to get a vasectomy. Female does not want him to get a vasectomy. They should absolutely discuss it, and he should take her thoughts into consideration. But ultimately, it is his body, and he has the right to make any and all medical decisions related to it. If he absolutely wants a vasectomy, the woman has zero right to prevent him from it, and should never have any legal right to prevent this.

[Mayor Gravity]

lumnata

Mayor Gravity

How is abortion not a woman's choice?

Because women must always consider what males think before doing anything. Women need male approval before doing something with their bodies that the male might not like, no matter if she is trying to eliminate unbearable conditions that will alter her body permanently, cause months of pain and hardship to her, and pose a threat to her health and her life.

Sorry, but if I'm raped, or involved in a one night stand. The last thing I'm going to do is talk to the man.