Is suicide really selfish?

[Nonesuch Solo]

I've been down that road before. Maybe I wasn't suicidal for as long as other people, I never made elaborate plans and held them close to my heart "just-in-case" as some people have, and I never made an attempt on my life as some people have. I've still been there, however briefly.

Joou no Oh

All that being said, i'm going to call you on doing exactly what I described in my very first post -you're re-villianizing suicidal people while attempting to take the spotlight, place it on the other people and paint them as martyrs. And finally -and this is the part that's not only triggering, but sparks violent rage in me- You are TRIVILAIZING victims everywhere and effectively taking the topic of conversation OFF OF THEM. Which is -again- a massive part of how isolation WORKS.

I don't count suicidal people as villains. In fact, in a previous post, I posit that the mental health of a suicidal person may absolve them from any sort of judgment call as to the "wrongness" of their choice. However, that choice affects others, and people who post in these sorts of threads have a tendency to oversimplify the situation. Invariably, some people will try to make claims about the magnitude, severity, and quality of the suffering other people experience in an attempt to make comparisons. The claim is generally that someone who attempts suicide has experienced more severe suffering than someone who has not made that choice.

Pain doesn't work like that. Nobody can claim that one person has more emotional pain than somebody else. The best that can be claimed is, from the evidence we have, those who choose to try to kill themselves have reached a certain breaking point. People have different thresholds. (If you want an imperfect analogy to physical pain, I need all the Novocaine they'll give me if I have to get a tiny cavity filled but my mother gets her root canals drilled without any pain medicine.) People have different levels at which they might say "If this happens, I can't go on." Of course, we won't know the truth if the person is dead--could they have coped with another day? another decade? Would their life have turned around completely?

Suicide is way too imprecise a measure to claim it indicates how "bad" somebody's overall emotional pain is.

Joou no Oh

And given that the people who pushed ME towards suicide were nearly all given family and were constantly around me while I gave signs ranging from "Nothing's wrong" to literally passing an older brother by and telling him to his face when he asked where I was going "I'm going to go die.", and given that they did this exact same s**t? You get a burning side-eye now.

Sorry you've had that experience. I've had family members who die without any signs at all. Well, once I got a very teary phone call to the tune of "I love you, I'm so sorry, goodbye" but by the time we called the cops, they were already there (I had been their last call) and the person was already dead. Every other interaction we had prior to that felt normal. I often wonder if this person thought there had been more signs, and that we had ignored them.

Joou no ********, I could dissect the irony of your post from here till tomorrow but I have neither the patience nor the emotional bandages to spare for how this is going to leave me afterward(even now) So i'll keep this short:

here is absolutely NOTHING "glorious" about comitting suidice, and for not only the disgusting irony i'm seeing here but the switch-a-roo bullshit you get a giant, massive, ******** eye for that. and a ******** You Too.[/quote]

I am so confused right now. I'm glad we agree that there is nothing glorious about committing suicide.

Joou no Oh

***The victim is dead. The victim is dead because they have suffered over a ridiculous amount of time in which anyone close to them could have done something. This topic -while asking about whether or not the act is selfish- is obviously going to also be about people at risk of suicide. It is NOT about the people who surround them AS equal victims. They still have thier lives, they still have a chance of recovery after the fact, Never guaranteed but a CHANCE. They can very well choose to blame the victim and villianize them over and over again for however long they wish with little to no contest which is what many wind up choosing to do -and the person who committed suicide certainly can't defend themse

4sx0alcr:4="Joou no Oh

***The victim is dead. The victim is dead because they have suffered over a ridiculous amount of time in which anyone close to them could have done something. This topic -while asking about whether or not the act is selfish- is obviously going to also be about people at risk of suicide. It is NOT about the people who surround them AS equal victims. They still have thier lives, they still have a chance of recovery[u] [b]after the fact[/b][/u], Never guaranteed but a [b][u]CHANCE[/u][/b]. They can very well choose to blame the victim and villianize them over and over again for however long they wish with little to no contest which is what many wind up choosing to do -and the person who committed suicide certainly can't defend themselves.

Anyone could have done something, but would it have ******** mattered? All the s**t I've done for some people obviously wasn't enough. There are folks I call once a year who never tried to kill themselves and folks I saw every weekend who did kill themselves. Maybe we should have seen each other twice a week? Maybe we should have seen a different movie? Maybe we shouldn't have had a heart-to-heart about their failing relationship? Maybe I shouldn't have gone to college because maybe if I had stayed home with our parents, things would have been different? I know you feel like people ignored your signs, but sometimes I think it's a crap shoot about what might save a life and what might just prolong their decision and what might push them over the edge. It's a mental health problem, not a "My friends and family will know exactly what to say and do for me" problem. Speculating about who is pushing whom towards suicide is unhelpful because more often than not our relationships with our loved ones are tainted by depression when we contemplate ending our own lives. Depression is a great isolation device; it isn't always the fault of the others.

And regarding emotional suffering, let's not forget that the deceased no longer have to worry about that (depending on your beliefs about the afterlife). The only people who still have the capacity to experience suffering are the ones still alive. This is another reason I find it ridiculous to try to compare who has it worse. How can we when the effects of suicide are not finite?

Joou no Oh

And i'm also going to add that in many cases it's those very same people who are a part of the problem I illustrated in pushing the victim towards suicide through isolation and other forms of denying thier validity. Which i'm going to repeat, is what happened to me, AND others I know offline. And they do it using any combination of the words that just came out of your mouth and the mouths of others who've posted here so far bearing the same sentiment.
The act itself can be sudden but the lead-up to? Is never, ever some sort of snap decision, it takes anywhere from weeks to decades to decide on killing yourself, and the whole way through you are dropping signs, or even not! But not showing signs dosen't mean you're not suffering and that's a huge part of the whole trust issue like I said eariler, and part of what makes it so hard to handle for the victim.

I don't blame my loved ones for not realizing what I was going through. How can they know if I can't talk about it?

The lead-up can also look like somebody is getting their dream together. They have a partner who loves them. They have a dog and a son who love them. They have a house with a view. They have a college degree, and are applying for some awesome jobs.

BLAM. Out of the ******** blue. No signs. What was I supposed to do, ask my happy loved one "Have you had any thoughts about suicide lately?" when it wasn't even on the radar?

What appears to have happened in that case was a brand new medication. If there's ever a class-action lawsuit against that pharm, we'll hopefully catch wind of it.

Joou no Oh

Finally: Regarding that dictionary quote -I don't ******** think so. -you don't get to twist and warp it to slander me and other victims. "advantage in disregard of others" There is no advantage in dying, NONE. ZERO. And like I already said(and like everyone else who actually gets it has said) The MAJOR reason they're so driven to do it is out of service to others, the opposite of selfish. You people need to stop playing this tired-a** role-reversal opposites bullshit game.
If you can't empathize with that then i'm not going to judge you, but if you nor anyone else can't take the time to UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS then you need to get on the bus.
And if any of you dare say anything about opinions then ******** you, my suffering and the suffering of others is NEVER an opinion and ya'll need to [******** leave.

The advantage is the release from pain, anxiety, responsibility, work, stress, trials, sickness, mental illness. My friend says, all the time, "I'm so tired. I don't want to be here anymore." I don't think I'm enough, but I can't make my friend go see a professional. Again, I never said being "selfish" is necessarily a bad thing. And, if you read back, mental illness has some bearing in the potential "wrongness" as well..

You'll need to seriously back up your claim that the "major reason" people commit suicide is "out of service to others." I've only spoken to a handful of people who think this way, out of the 50+ people I know who have seriously considered or attempted suicide. The vast majority talk about things like "I've got nobody" and "I'm just sick of this life" and "I just keep thinking about my baby sister, she would have been 21 this year and I would be taking her out for drinks to celebrate, god I miss her so much, how come she got to quit? I just want to quit too."

[low iq 111]

Nonesuch Solo

low iq 111

Nonesuch Solo

The Herald of War

Kozumuda

I figure that it would be inferred that just letting all the others deal with the problem at hand and not standing up to it like everyone else would be selfish.

The problem at hand might very well be dealt with by suicide if the problem is a personal one. If the problem is one's own feelings then there's nothing left for others to deal with.

Wait, what?

No, the only way for there NOT to be problems left over for others to deal with is if, perhaps, the individual were to kill themselves without leaving a body, having given their loved ones a plausible reason for their disappearance and put their affairs in order.

How else would you eliminate
~ survivor guilt
~ "I should join him!"
~ funeral costs
~ burial or cremation costs
~ distribution of any assets
and so on?

this is dumb.
assets and costs should cancel each other out. if the cost is more than the assets, well, you need to figure that it won't be in the long run because the person who committed suicide would have to be pretty poor to have 0 assets and so that is one less person on welfare which = taxes don't rise. also that is one less person driving around burning fuel, eating the food supply, using resources, etc.

also, what does "i should join him!" even mean, anyway? if someone else commits suicide because another person does it, they were probably pretty suicidal to begin with. the first suicide didn't all of a sudden start a domino effect of problems for people. it's a suicide. it's a death. sad things happen and mature people should be able to move on.

that brings me to your first point, survivor guilt. sure people will be affected by suicide just as they are affected if you take any action. but you can't live or die, heh, just based on the feelings of others.... you have to do your own thing sometimes. survivors should be able to move on like mature people. i can understand a little guilt, but i really can't understand that much. you do what you can and that's that.

Firstly, the person I quoted implied that if someone commits suicide because of their own feelings, there will be no problems left for other people to deal with. I'm not sure if they meant that, but if they did, it's false. My list was not meant to be all-inclusive, nor was it meant to say that all of these problems are experienced by all survivors.

Secondly, it isn't "dumb." emotion_facepalm



Having no assets does not mean that you are on welfare. Many people rent a place and live paycheck to paycheck. Many successful suicides are actually teenagers still living with their parents. Regardless, removing myself from society does not mean that the net financial contribution is a gain or zero. My parents have spent considerable financial and emotional resources in the hopes that I will one day become a fully functioning adult and productive member of society. If I end my life, it's not just my potential for future resource consumption that I've ended but also my potential for productivity. Arguing from potential is incredibly short-sighted. What if a person had stayed in this life and gone on to cure cancer? What if instead a person had stayed in this life and gone on to murder someone? Or what if they just lived a normal, unremarkable life? What if they had chosen to walk everywhere, eat locally-grown produce, and live simply for the rest of their lives (the opposite of your claims about resource consumption)? You don't know what would have happened, whether they would have contributed good or evil to the world. It's pointless to make those arguments.

You know very well what "I should join him" means. rolleyes Having a loved one take their own life can completely upset your worldview. It most certainly CAN start a domino effect. At the very least, if you had never before even thought about suicide (which I admit is rarer and rarer these days), you now know that suicide exists and that someone you cared about chose that path. I've seen families destroyed by suicide; I've seen families lose multiple members to suicide. Think of a parent, who has--as I noted--spent many years and a considerable amount of their own financial and emotional resources caring for their child. For that child to end it all, just like that, it can really change your outlook on life. I had a friend whose father found her dead in her room one night. He is not the same. He has several other responsibilities so he will not likely kill himself, but this is not a weak man who had prior mental problems. This is a man who lost his precious daughter suddenly, painfully, completely out of the blue. You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind. "Mature people should be able to move on..." Do you even understand the double standard you're portraying: that suicidal people have the right to be suicidal, but if you're suicidal because somebody else blew their damn brains out first then you're immature? There are all sorts of triggers for suicidal thought and most of them can be considered immature by people who have experienced those situations and moved on with their lives. People need to stop ******** idealizing suicidal thoughts as some beautiful, special thing. People hurt, people hurt a lot, people hurt and continue living, people hurt and end it.

This is not a maturity issue, it's a mental health issue. Mental health is affected by heredity and by circumstance. The people around me live with survivor guilt. Every damn day they regret what they did or didn't do, which may or may not have had any ******** impact on their loved one's choice to end it all. There's a man I know who has PTSD because he was there, trying to save his wife as she put a hole in her head.

My main point in most of my posts is that several of you are belittling the feelings of those who are left behind in the wake of a tragedy like suicide. "Well the suicidal person was hurting SOOO MUCH and you guys just don't want to be sad for a couple of days" is the attitude I hear. It's not true, and it's bullshit for you to glorify suicide up on this damn pedestal while you insult most of the people I've ever known. Pain cannot be quantified in the first place, it's ridiculous to try to claim one person has it worse than another, especially while you're making sweeping generalizations about successful suicides versus their living loved ones.

since when is burial of a dead person a problem? it's just a reaction to an event. if the mere act of burial is such a problem you need a slap in the face with reality.

your potential for productivity died, yes, but usually americans consume more than they produce. so it will end up being better financially for everyone.

what if the suicidal person was rich? what if he/she had assets? or what if s/he didn't and owed a lot of debt? you don't know what the person was like so don't make these arguments.

"You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind."

correct but you can't do the opposite either, belittling a suicidal person and asking for respect for others, which is what you're doing. btw when have i belittled anyone? i didn't call anyone immature, that was your own assumption about what i said so now i'm confused...

"Do you even understand the double standard you're portraying: that suicidal people have the right to be suicidal, but if you're suicidal because somebody else blew their damn brains out first then you're immature?"

yeah but you're the one who would call both of those people selfish. i'm just stating the facts. mature people move on from death. i'm not trying to imply that a reactionary suicide would be immature though. i would respect a reactionary suicide as well as the original. i do think a reactionary suicide is somewhat over reactionary or slightly immature, but i can respect it.

"This is not a maturity issue, it's a mental health issue. "

this is not a selfish issue, this is a mental health issue.

i'm not putting suicide on a pedestal. your putting suicide on a pedestal by acting like it's some great big tragedy.

okay it is not always ridiculous to say one person is in more pain than another. if someone is starving he would obviously have more pain than someone who stubbed their toe. it would be ridiculous to compare a stubbed toe vs a broken nail or something like that. but the point is that it's not always ridiculous to compare pain.

[low iq 111]

Nonesuch Solo

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Nonesuch Solo

dolly milk

I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's selfish, if it isn't done with the intent of hurting others.

That's like saying it's selfish to buy yourself lunch, instead of just giving it to a starving homeless person.

Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness.

Selfishness is just trying to do things for your own benefit. I can eat the last slice of pizza because it's tasty, and that's selfish. Am I a bad person for eating the last slice of pizza? Not necessarily. Maybe if I am supposed to be sharing the pizza with somebody else and I've had more than my fair share, then eating the last slice would be a bad thing.

Colloquially, however, many people do associate selfishness with taking things and preventing someone else from having them. When people say "That's so selfish," they mean "You're doing something for yourself and ignoring what someone else needs."

In both ways, suicide can be counted as selfish. Suicide is most often, in developed nations, a reaction to difficulties faced in life. For those experiencing emotional pain, it's a step taken in an effort to end your own misery. And while doing something to ease or end your pain is not inherently bad, it's hard not to know that your choice will negatively impact somebody else.

Now, when people use the word selfish to say that somebody is intending to hurt somebody else (which is even farther along the spectrum than the normal colloquial usage), then that is unlikely to factor into the majority of suicide attempts. Relatively few people who want to end their life are thinking "I want my mom to cry for MONTHS! And my sister, I hope she becomes suicidal too! Hahaha! If I plan this right, my dad will find my corpse and he'll be too traumatized to even look at that room in our house again! This is great!"

In fact, I'd wager the majority of suicides in developed nations are committed by people in emotional distress, which means they aren't necessarily "in their right mind" and so perhaps you cannot truly ascribe malicious selfishness to what they do, since they aren't thinking straight.

i bet pointing out to a suicidal person that they're selfish is really going to help them.

Usually not--there are some people who will stop and think about whether they are being selfish and then choose not to do it--but the discussion was not about how to handle suicidal people. It was about whether or not the choice is a selfish one.

Yes, it is. Either way you slice it:

low iq 111

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

So the answer is yes, it is selfish.

the reason i posted the definition is because of what you said on page 4 of this thread:

"Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness."

so you're gonna have to fix your arguments somewhere. you can't have it both ways.

secondly, no it is not. usually a suicidal person thinks s/he is being helpful to others because s/he feels like a burden.

[Nonesuch Solo]

low iq 111

since when is burial of a dead person a problem? it's just a reaction to an event. if the mere act of burial is such a problem you need a slap in the face with reality.

Anything that takes up resources unexpectedly can be a problem. Burial plots and caskets and markers cost money. The funeral costs money. Anyone who attends is losing time, sometimes from their jobs. Anyone who travels has the cost of travel and, if they use their own vehicle, wear and tear on their car. This can be complicated if there is a disagreement as to the location ("I want him with OUR family in Texas!" or "I think he would have wanted to be on the coast here!") and when there are no clear final wishes people may argue about all of the details. If the spouse things they wanted to be cremated but the parents don't believe in cremation, that is a problem. Again, my list is not complete nor is it to say that this is a problem for everybody; the most recent person I know who ended their life actually didn't require a burial plot because the family already had a two-person vault due to another death in the family. We all still had to take time off from work, some of the family had to buy last-minute airplane tickets if they wanted to attend. (Currently, the cost for me to fly so I could be present at a hypothetical funeral on Monday is over $1100 on Priceline. That's more than half my household's monthly earnings.) I mean, I suppose I could just not go to a funeral, but that creates other emotional difficulties.

low iq 111

your potential for productivity died, yes, but usually americans consume more than they produce. so it will end up being better financially for everyone.

An aging population will not be better off financially with fewer young people in the workforce.

low iq 111

what if the suicidal person was rich? what if he/she had assets? or what if s/he didn't and owed a lot of debt? you don't know what the person was like so don't make these arguments.

That...was my argument. That these are possible problems, and you cannot argue that they won't be problems based on potential.

low iq 111

"You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind."

correct but you can't do the opposite either, belittling a suicidal person and asking for respect for others, which is what you're doing. btw when have i belittled anyone? i didn't call anyone immature, that was your own assumption about what i said so now i'm confused...

I'm not belittling suicidal people. I used the term selfish, which has several meanings both in the dictionary and in popular culture. But I'll come back to that.

The person I quoted was belittling the feelings of the loved ones, which is what I was responding to in the first place. However, you did say that "survivors should be able to move on like mature people." This implies that if you don't move on for some reason, you are immature--belittling somebody who is likely suffering.

low iq 111

"Do you even understand the double standard you're portraying: that suicidal people have the right to be suicidal, but if you're suicidal because somebody else blew their damn brains out first then you're immature?"

yeah but you're the one who would call both of those people selfish. i'm just stating the facts. mature people move on from death. i'm not trying to imply that a reactionary suicide would be immature though. i would respect a reactionary suicide as well as the original. i do think a reactionary suicide is somewhat over reactionary or slightly immature, but i can respect it.

If you look closely, I've called MYSELF selfish. You can use the word selfish without applying character judgment (although most people DO use it to make a judgment). I ate waffles for breakfast; this was chiefly for my own well-being and therefore selfish. This doesn't mean I am a bad person, or that what I did was at the expense of someone else.

low iq 111

"This is not a maturity issue, it's a mental health issue. "

this is not a selfish issue, this is a mental health issue.

And if you look closely, I've said something very similar as well.

low iq 111

i'm not putting suicide on a pedestal. your putting suicide on a pedestal by acting like it's some great big tragedy.

These threads usually turn into a disagreement about who's the more martyred, who suffers more, who is more deserving of concern. I'm not sure reading back what I was responding to, specifically, if it came from your post or just the posts I've been reading, but the general sentiment I was feeling was that suicidal people hurt more than others, they are sorely abused by society, and so forth.

low iq 111

okay it is not always ridiculous to say one person is in more pain than another. if someone is starving he would obviously have more pain than someone who stubbed their toe. it would be ridiculous to compare a stubbed toe vs a broken nail or something like that. but the point is that it's not always ridiculous to compare pain.

That's not comparing pain, but comparing events which are experienced differently by everybody.

Regardless, we're talking about suicide and how that affects everybody involved.

[Nonesuch Solo]

low iq 111

Nonesuch Solo

low iq 111

Nonesuch Solo

dolly milk

I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's selfish, if it isn't done with the intent of hurting others.

That's like saying it's selfish to buy yourself lunch, instead of just giving it to a starving homeless person.

Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness.

Selfishness is just trying to do things for your own benefit. I can eat the last slice of pizza because it's tasty, and that's selfish. Am I a bad person for eating the last slice of pizza? Not necessarily. Maybe if I am supposed to be sharing the pizza with somebody else and I've had more than my fair share, then eating the last slice would be a bad thing.

Colloquially, however, many people do associate selfishness with taking things and preventing someone else from having them. When people say "That's so selfish," they mean "You're doing something for yourself and ignoring what someone else needs."

In both ways, suicide can be counted as selfish. Suicide is most often, in developed nations, a reaction to difficulties faced in life. For those experiencing emotional pain, it's a step taken in an effort to end your own misery. And while doing something to ease or end your pain is not inherently bad, it's hard not to know that your choice will negatively impact somebody else.

Now, when people use the word selfish to say that somebody is intending to hurt somebody else (which is even farther along the spectrum than the normal colloquial usage), then that is unlikely to factor into the majority of suicide attempts. Relatively few people who want to end their life are thinking "I want my mom to cry for MONTHS! And my sister, I hope she becomes suicidal too! Hahaha! If I plan this right, my dad will find my corpse and he'll be too traumatized to even look at that room in our house again! This is great!"

In fact, I'd wager the majority of suicides in developed nations are committed by people in emotional distress, which means they aren't necessarily "in their right mind" and so perhaps you cannot truly ascribe malicious selfishness to what they do, since they aren't thinking straight.

i bet pointing out to a suicidal person that they're selfish is really going to help them.

Usually not--there are some people who will stop and think about whether they are being selfish and then choose not to do it--but the discussion was not about how to handle suicidal people. It was about whether or not the choice is a selfish one.

Yes, it is. Either way you slice it:

low iq 111

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

So the answer is yes, it is selfish.

the reason i posted the definition is because of what you said on page 4 of this thread:

"Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness."

so you're gonna have to fix your arguments somewhere. you can't have it both ways.

secondly, no it is not. usually a suicidal person thinks s/he is being helpful to others because s/he feels like a burden.

I said there were different definitions. I think it's in that same post. One definition is concern for one's own welfare. Another definition is concern for one's own welfare with disregard for others. Suicide fits both definitions for reasons I've already described, in that post and in others.

I'd like to ask you, as well, for proof about that last claim. I've had so many suicidal friends and family members over the years, and the majority of them have said nothing about sparing other people pain or expense. Those who do have never cited this as their only reason. Rather, they use it as a justification for their desire.

[crowningKings]

suicide,I never thought that the person who committed it was "selfish"
I have a friend that try to do that a lot that he has a record for that !
to some people , it doesn't matter if their hurting the people around them !
I don't think a person is selfish for committing suicide,even if it makes others depressed
........... crying . emotion_facepalm .......... Also depends why there committing suicide

[Haern]

God has a plan for you, and taking it upon yourself to remove yourself from that plan IS selfish. Taking your life, a permanent solution to a temporary problem IS selfish. Removing yourself from your friends and families lives, yeah. Selfish.

There's always help. There is always somebody to talk to.

Calling them a coward? I wouldn't say that. But definitely selfish.

[Telor II]

Well, it's an action that is necessarily about the suicidal person and nobody else. So by strict definition it is selfish.

That's why I think assisted suicide is the best way to go. It should be available in hospitals after a mandatory thorough psychiatric evaluation.
People who want to badly enough are going to off themselves no matter what. Might as well make it as painless a process as possible for everyone. (alliteration not intended, but awesome)

[recycled atoms]

Many individuals who commit suicide do so because they are experiencing an unimaginable amount of pain and they truly don't know how else to manage it.

Some of us sit here and write off their actions as selfish, but to demand that they keep living a life that they don't want is what really seems selfish. I think we should make it a point to offer suicidal/depressed individuals help; we can attempt to make them receive therapy and even force them into it, but if they still despise their very existence, I'm not sure what else to do.

[dolly milk]

Matt1720

God has a plan for you, and taking it upon yourself to remove yourself from that plan IS selfish. Taking your life, a permanent solution to a temporary problem IS selfish. Removing yourself from your friends and families lives, yeah. Selfish.

There's always help. There is always somebody to talk to.

Calling them a coward? I wouldn't say that. But definitely selfish.

God has a plan for us? Really? So why don't we take people who get into car accidents, end up losing some or all of their limbs, become paralyzed, blind, etc. Why don't we take those women back East who's husbands throw acid onto their faces and permanently disfigure their appearances, not to mention causing unimaginable agony from the burning sensation of having their flesh slowly and painfully eaten away. Is that also God's plan? Wouldn't it be better to just take a bullet to the head, no pain or suffering included, and save your self from experiencing the said pain that I just mentioned?

So according to your logic, people are selfish for not being obedient slaves to your magical sky daddy and following what he says and does, and what he has in store for them regardless of whether it's going to impact them in a severely negative way. So people should just suffer anyway because that's what "god" says should happen.

You've got some serious issues. Maybe you're the one who needs to get help. rolleyes

[Haern]

dolly milk

Matt1720

God has a plan for you, and taking it upon yourself to remove yourself from that plan IS selfish. Taking your life, a permanent solution to a temporary problem IS selfish. Removing yourself from your friends and families lives, yeah. Selfish.

There's always help. There is always somebody to talk to.

Calling them a coward? I wouldn't say that. But definitely selfish.

God has a plan for us? Really? So why don't we take people who get into car accidents, end up losing some or all of their limbs, become paralyzed, blind, etc. Why don't we take those women back East who's husbands throw acid onto their faces and permanently disfigure their appearances, not to mention causing unimaginable agony from the burning sensation of having their flesh slowly and painfully eaten away. Is that also God's plan? Wouldn't it be better to just take a bullet to the head, no pain or suffering included, and save your self from experiencing the said pain that I just mentioned?

So according to your logic, people are selfish for not being obedient slaves to your magical sky daddy and following what he says and does, and what he has in store for them regardless of whether it's going to impact them in a severely negative way. So people should just suffer anyway because that's what "god" says should happen.

You've got some serious issues. Maybe you're the one who needs to get help. rolleyes

I didn't read your entire post. Maybe the first two lines, then the last part at the bottom. I'm betting its filled with hate for God. That's cool too.

But it doesn't change the fact that suicide is selfish. If you want to debate and talk God with me, feel free to PM me. If not, that's cool. I won't argue or get angry or fire back with some mean or sarcastic remark. If you want to talk like an adult, and PM me, you can. Otherwise, that's it. Suicide is selfish. Thank you though for taking time to respond.

Either way, if you PM me or not.. I hope you have a blessed night.

[dolly milk]

Matt1720

I didn't read your entire post. Maybe the first two lines, then the last part at the bottom. I'm betting its filled with hate for God. That's cool too.

But it doesn't change the fact that suicide is selfish. If you want to debate and talk God with me, feel free to PM me. If not, that's cool. I won't argue or get angry or fire back with some mean or sarcastic remark. If you want to talk like an adult, and PM me, you can. Otherwise, that's it. Suicide is selfish. Thank you though for taking time to respond.

Either way, if you PM me or not.. I hope you have a blessed night.

It has nothing to do with "hatred for god", I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument. Basically what you're saying is: people should be forced to suffer, and people should be forced to live lives full of pain, or else they are selfish. Taking the initiative to end suffering makes somebody selfish.

Let me ask you something. Are you a sadist?
If you really think that every single person you know were put on this earth solely to please you, and that you're obligated to force them into pain, suffering and unhappiness just for your own wellbeing, then perhaps you are really the selfish one here.

If there is a "plan" like you say there is, then it must be a pretty ******** up plan, considering the mass amounts of people who have to live with suffering every day.

[Knobist]

dolly milk

Matt1720

I didn't read your entire post. Maybe the first two lines, then the last part at the bottom. I'm betting its filled with hate for God. That's cool too.

But it doesn't change the fact that suicide is selfish. If you want to debate and talk God with me, feel free to PM me. If not, that's cool. I won't argue or get angry or fire back with some mean or sarcastic remark. If you want to talk like an adult, and PM me, you can. Otherwise, that's it. Suicide is selfish. Thank you though for taking time to respond.

Either way, if you PM me or not.. I hope you have a blessed night.

It has nothing to do with "hatred for god", I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument. Basically what you're saying is: people should be forced to suffer, and people should be forced to live lives full of pain, or else they are selfish. Taking the initiative to end suffering makes somebody selfish.

Let me ask you something. Are you a sadist?
If you really think that every single person you know were put on this earth solely to please you, and that you're obligated to force them into pain, suffering and unhappiness just for your own wellbeing, then perhaps you are really the selfish one here.

If there is a "plan" like you say there is, then it must be a pretty ******** up plan, considering the mass amounts of people who have to live with suffering every day.

Ms. Dolly, why do you think that God even cares. If you could defy logic why would you give a s**t?

[Haern]

dolly milk

Matt1720

I didn't read your entire post. Maybe the first two lines, then the last part at the bottom. I'm betting its filled with hate for God. That's cool too.

But it doesn't change the fact that suicide is selfish. If you want to debate and talk God with me, feel free to PM me. If not, that's cool. I won't argue or get angry or fire back with some mean or sarcastic remark. If you want to talk like an adult, and PM me, you can. Otherwise, that's it. Suicide is selfish. Thank you though for taking time to respond.

Either way, if you PM me or not.. I hope you have a blessed night.

It has nothing to do with "hatred for god", I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument. Basically what you're saying is: people should be forced to suffer, and people should be forced to live lives full of pain, or else they are selfish. Taking the initiative to end suffering makes somebody selfish.

Let me ask you something. Are you a sadist?
If you really think that every single person you know were put on this earth solely to please you, and that you're obligated to force them into pain, suffering and unhappiness just for your own wellbeing, then perhaps you are really the selfish one here.

If there is a "plan" like you say there is, then it must be a pretty ******** up plan, considering the mass amounts of people who have to live with suffering every day.

Listen. If you want to talk, PM me. Otherwise, leave it alone. The answer to your TOPIC question is yes, suicide is selfish. There are people always willing to help and talk to people.

[dolly milk]

Matt1720

Listen. If you want to talk, PM me. Otherwise, leave it alone. The answer to your TOPIC question is yes, suicide is selfish. There are people always willing to help and talk to people.

And it was also to call out people, like yourself, who are also selfish when it comes to the topic of suicide. In other words, basically using the people around them as their own personal prostitutes for self satisfaction.