Is suicide really selfish?

[FoxHaru]

“A true suicide is a paced, disciplined certainty. People pontificate, "Suicide is selfishness." Career churchmen like Pater go a step further and call in a cowardly assault on the living. Oafs argue this specious line for varying reason: to evade fingers of blame, to impress one's audience with one's mental fiber, to vent anger, or just because one lacks the necessary suffering to sympathize. Cowardice is nothing to do with it - suicide takes considerable courage. Japanese have the right idea. No, what's selfish is to demand another to endure an intolerable existence, just to spare families, friends, and enemies a bit of soul-searching. The only selfishness lies in ruining strangers' days by forcing 'em to witness a grotesqueness.”


― David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas

[Nonesuch Solo]

dolly milk

Nonesuch Solo

And yes, it is selfish to buy yourself lunch

rofl rofl rofl
Why don't we all just ******** starve to death then.. LOL.

Hey everyone, according to this guy, eating is selfish! Let's just all stop eating now, okay guys?!

It's pointless; you do not understand. "Selfish" can have a value judgment added to it, and "selfish" can NOT have a value judgment added to it.

You are obviously using ONLY the definition of "selfish" which includes some level of wrongness. This is why I find it important to define terms before getting into arguments.

You are wrong because you are not reading my posts fully. I'm glad I didn't get into the argument that nothing is altruistic. Maybe it's a maturity issue?

I never said that being selfish is wrong or that we cannot be selfish. I am selfish every damn day and I don't feel guilty at all.

I'm selfish sitting here on the internet trying to explain myself to someone who delights in mocking me because she can't wrap her brain around the fact that words have a variety of nuances to their meaning.

Now I'm going to go be selfish and eat some waffles.

I'm selfish because I'm doing these things for my own self-interest, not because I'm a Bad Bad Person. emotion_awesome


The thoughts about altruism are itching at my fingertips if anybody with the capacity to listen would like to hear.

[Joou no Oh]

dolly milk

This has always been a topic that has confused me.

People always claim that those who commit suicide or want to commit suicide are selfish, because it effects the people around them who love them. They want that person in their lives and it would be depressing for them if they were to lose that person.

But isn't it really the same way for the person on the receiving end? This person clearly wants to end their life. They are suffering, and they want to end that suffering by not living anymore. But those who want them alive ridicule them for being suicidal, and force them to stay alive, thus making them suffer even further because they want to be dead. In a way, it's also selfish to force them into something they don't want, torturing them for YOUR own well-being and satisfaction.

Discuss.

Note: Don't bring anything up about "getting help instead", that's not what the topic is about.

Agreed. This reminds me of a deep conversation I was having with a friend a while back. We came to this very topic and lemme tell ya, we both definetely agreed on some major things about this issue.

To put it all short, When someone calls a suicidal person selfish they are doing the following:

- Projecting thier selfishness onto the victim(and yes, they ARE a victim, keep reading)

- This accusation Isolates them, which furthers thier pain and pushes them further toward suicide than they'll ever know. The closer to the victim the accuser is, is the greater the push because of the trust it takes to even begin to open up about feeling suicidal.

- Putting thier anger or sadness or upset at having been made to feel bad about the victim ABOUVE the victim's needs and very real risk. By calling the suicidal selfish, they are not only re-villianizing them(remember they already see themselves as less-than in some way), the accuser's also simultaneously stealing thier spotlight to plant it on themselves as a victim -stealing the victim's place. Basically saying
"I'm angry at YOU for making me feel upset! How DARE you make me feel bad about you! and/or your situation!"

And let's be clear here:
What is the accuser a victim of?: Nothing.(when compared to the victim's risks. minus the comparison the worst is feeling bad.)

What is the accuser ultimately at risk of? Feeling bad. (whether it's for thier friend/etc or about thier situation et cetera..) Mourning(worst case scenario), attending a funeral if there's one held.

What is the suicidal person a victim of?: Isolation(which is compounded by the accuser), damaged self-esteem, severe depression, feelings of helplessness, feelings of hopelessness, possible other problems such as anxiety, PTSD and more.

What is the victim at risk of: Death.

Cut through all the bullshit and that's what you're left with. Slitheringly selfish projection and isolation at it's worst.

And finally I want to point out something extremely important about all this, we all have a natural drive to avoid death that is subconscious, and very, VERY hard to override -if you've ever attempted, then you've experienced the push-back from this drive first-hand. I have several times over the course of my life. There's a reason for the high number of failed attempts out there.

When someone is suicidal, they feel so very much like a burden to those around them that they honestly believe that they are doing thier world and thier loved ones a benefit by killing themselves. You have to be in the worst of ways to believe that the planet, that life itself around you would be better off without you. You are dealing with not only a contradictory struggle against your drive to live, you believe you are doing it for the good of others. To want to do something for others just for the sake of wanting to do something good, is the very antithesis of selfishness.


So when you(generally speaking) call someone who has suicidal feelings selfish... You are pushing them in so many little and big ways towards breaking that override, that it's downright damnright ******** scary.

[Chocobo Fluff]

Joou no Oh

Agreed. This reminds me of a deep conversation I was having with a friend a while back. We came to this very topic and lemme tell ya, we both definetely agreed on some major things about this issue.

To put it all short, When someone calls a suicidal person selfish they are doing the following:

- Projecting thier selfishness onto the victim(and yes, they ARE a victim, keep reading)

- This accusation Isolates them, which furthers thier pain and pushes them further toward suicide than they'll ever know. The closer to the victim the accuser is, is the greater the push because of the trust it takes to even begin to open up about feeling suicidal.

- Putting thier anger or sadness or upset at having been made to feel bad about the victim ABOUVE the victim's needs and very real risk. By calling the suicidal selfish, they are not only re-villianizing them(remember they already see themselves as less-than in some way), the accuser's also simultaneously stealing thier spotlight to plant it on themselves as a victim -stealing the victim's place. Basically saying
"I'm angry at YOU for making me feel upset! How DARE you make me feel bad about you! and/or your situation!"

And let's be clear here:
What is the accuser a victim of?: Nothing.(when compared to the victim's risks. minus the comparison the worst is feeling bad.)

What is the accuser ultimately at risk of? Feeling bad. (whether it's for thier friend/etc or about thier situation et cetera..) Mourning(worst case scenario), attending a funeral if there's one held.

What is the suicidal person a victim of?: Isolation(which is compounded by the accuser), damaged self-esteem, severe depression, feelings of helplessness, feelings of hopelessness, possible other problems such as anxiety, PTSD and more.

What is the victim at risk of: Death.

Cut through all the bullshit and that's what you're left with. Slitheringly selfish projection and isolation at it's worst.

And finally I want to point out something extremely important about all this, we all have a natural drive to avoid death that is subconscious, and very, VERY hard to override -if you've ever attempted, then you've experienced the push-back from this drive first-hand. I have several times over the course of my life. There's a reason for the high number of failed attempts out there.

When someone is suicidal, they feel so very much like a burden to those around them that they honestly believe that they are doing thier world and thier loved ones a benefit by killing themselves. You have to be in the worst of ways to believe that the planet, that life itself around you would be better off without you. You are dealing with not only a contradictory struggle against your drive to live, you believe you are doing it for the good of others. To want to do something for others just for the sake of wanting to do something good, is the very antithesis of selfishness.


So when you(generally speaking) call someone who has suicidal feelings selfish... You are pushing them in so many little and big ways towards breaking that override, that it's downright damnright ******** scary.

I completely agree, could not have said it any better than this.

[Queen Belle von Hellbond]

Well this topic seems to be going in circles but then again, this is the ED. The only thing I can add (as a person who has survived and gotten through multiple suicide attempts with the support of family and friends) is that sometimes, someone depressed enough to want to commit suicide creates a double standard for themselves. They survive and ultimately don't take their life because they consider it selfish, but only for themselves. If a person that is not them commits suicide, it isn't selfish, just tragic. At least that is how I have come to see it. As for why it is even considered and why it is so hard to seek out help, that is a bit harder for me to explain. In my opinion, what is so crippling about depression isn't the emotions, it is the source of the emotions. There is a reason it is considered a mental illness. A person that is severely depressed has usually (not always) internalized negative thoughts about themselves. By doing so, these thoughts become their reality. Because they become a reality, it makes no difference what people say because at that point, the "self-loathing" for lack of a better term, comes from within the person, and only they can change that reality. Likewise, there is a huge stigma still attached to depression and suicide/suicidal tendencies. Many in society view it as something that you should just be able to "snap out of" or "get over" likewise suicide is considered weak, so these people suffer further and feel further isolated. I could talk more, but I think I will stop before this becomes a huge wall of text.

[Knobist]

Fermionic

Jacque De Molay

Fermionic

Jacque De Molay

Suicidesoldier#1

Nu-uh!

You can't go above double infinity billion. ninja

I thought numerical sets had no limits!

"Infinity" isn't in a numerical set.

Infinity is the numerical set.

Infinity isn't a numerical set.

Infinity is the set.

[low iq 111]

Nonesuch Solo

The Herald of War

Kozumuda

The Herald of War

Kozumuda

All suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Therefore making it selfish.

That is not how selfishness is defined, that is you repeating phrases without comprehension.

I figure that it would be inferred that just letting all the others deal with the problem at hand and not standing up to it like everyone else would be selfish.

The problem at hand might very well be dealt with by suicide if the problem is a personal one. If the problem is one's own feelings then there's nothing left for others to deal with.

Wait, what?

No, the only way for there NOT to be problems left over for others to deal with is if, perhaps, the individual were to kill themselves without leaving a body, having given their loved ones a plausible reason for their disappearance and put their affairs in order.

How else would you eliminate
~ survivor guilt
~ "I should join him!"
~ funeral costs
~ burial or cremation costs
~ distribution of any assets
and so on?

this is dumb.
assets and costs should cancel each other out. if the cost is more than the assets, well, you need to figure that it won't be in the long run because the person who committed suicide would have to be pretty poor to have 0 assets and so that is one less person on welfare which = taxes don't rise. also that is one less person driving around burning fuel, eating the food supply, using resources, etc.

also, what does "i should join him!" even mean, anyway? if someone else commits suicide because another person does it, they were probably pretty suicidal to begin with. the first suicide didn't all of a sudden start a domino effect of problems for people. it's a suicide. it's a death. sad things happen and mature people should be able to move on.

that brings me to your first point, survivor guilt. sure people will be affected by suicide just as they are affected if you take any action. but you can't live or die, heh, just based on the feelings of others.... you have to do your own thing sometimes. survivors should be able to move on like mature people. i can understand a little guilt, but i really can't understand that much. you do what you can and that's that.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Joou no Oh

What is the accuser ultimately at risk of? Feeling bad. (whether it's for thier friend/etc or about thier situation et cetera..) Mourning(worst case scenario), attending a funeral if there's one held.

I'm going to refer to a death which happened in the family for the following.

The survivors are at risk of:

~ Monetary responsibilities including but not always limited to a burial plot, casket, cremation services, containers for cremated remains, venue and officiant for the funeral, airfare, rental cars, hotel rooms...

~ Emotional trauma. The partner of the deceased owned the house and was at home with the nine year old while they all argued through locked doors, while the deceased made the final decision, and while the partner tried to resuscitate. Afterwards, the partner's parents volunteered to tear up the bloodied rug, bleach the bloodied walls and floors, tear out the bloodied moulding. Likely it was not just blood but also brain matter. When I arrived to go through the deceased's belongings, these items were piled by the curb as the trash hadn't been picked up yet. I chose the deceased's final outfit.

~ Mental health problems, including but not limited to depression, PTSD, suicidal thoughts.

~ Suicide.

I had more to say last night but I had to run. I'm going to repeat something I posted this morning:

You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind.

Keep reading in my next post if you want.

[low iq 111]

Nonesuch Solo

dolly milk

I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's selfish, if it isn't done with the intent of hurting others.

That's like saying it's selfish to buy yourself lunch, instead of just giving it to a starving homeless person.

Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness.

Selfishness is just trying to do things for your own benefit. I can eat the last slice of pizza because it's tasty, and that's selfish. Am I a bad person for eating the last slice of pizza? Not necessarily. Maybe if I am supposed to be sharing the pizza with somebody else and I've had more than my fair share, then eating the last slice would be a bad thing.

Colloquially, however, many people do associate selfishness with taking things and preventing someone else from having them. When people say "That's so selfish," they mean "You're doing something for yourself and ignoring what someone else needs."

In both ways, suicide can be counted as selfish. Suicide is most often, in developed nations, a reaction to difficulties faced in life. For those experiencing emotional pain, it's a step taken in an effort to end your own misery. And while doing something to ease or end your pain is not inherently bad, it's hard not to know that your choice will negatively impact somebody else.

Now, when people use the word selfish to say that somebody is intending to hurt somebody else (which is even farther along the spectrum than the normal colloquial usage), then that is unlikely to factor into the majority of suicide attempts. Relatively few people who want to end their life are thinking "I want my mom to cry for MONTHS! And my sister, I hope she becomes suicidal too! Hahaha! If I plan this right, my dad will find my corpse and he'll be too traumatized to even look at that room in our house again! This is great!"

In fact, I'd wager the majority of suicides in developed nations are committed by people in emotional distress, which means they aren't necessarily "in their right mind" and so perhaps you cannot truly ascribe malicious selfishness to what they do, since they aren't thinking straight.

i bet pointing out to a suicidal person that they're selfish is really going to help them.

[low iq 111]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

[Das Rabble Rouser]

I think it is selfish to end your suffering regardless of what it does to your friends and family. That being said I don't necessarily think it's wrong. I think it's their life and their decision.

[Fermionic]

Jacque De Molay

Fermionic

Jacque De Molay

Fermionic

Jacque De Molay

Suicidesoldier#1

Nu-uh!

You can't go above double infinity billion. ninja

I thought numerical sets had no limits!

"Infinity" isn't in a numerical set.

Infinity is the numerical set.

Infinity isn't a numerical set.

Infinity is the set.

Infinity isn't a set.

[Nonesuch Solo]

low iq 111

Nonesuch Solo

The Herald of War

Kozumuda

The Herald of War

Kozumuda

All suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Therefore making it selfish.

That is not how selfishness is defined, that is you repeating phrases without comprehension.

I figure that it would be inferred that just letting all the others deal with the problem at hand and not standing up to it like everyone else would be selfish.

The problem at hand might very well be dealt with by suicide if the problem is a personal one. If the problem is one's own feelings then there's nothing left for others to deal with.

Wait, what?

No, the only way for there NOT to be problems left over for others to deal with is if, perhaps, the individual were to kill themselves without leaving a body, having given their loved ones a plausible reason for their disappearance and put their affairs in order.

How else would you eliminate
~ survivor guilt
~ "I should join him!"
~ funeral costs
~ burial or cremation costs
~ distribution of any assets
and so on?

this is dumb.
assets and costs should cancel each other out. if the cost is more than the assets, well, you need to figure that it won't be in the long run because the person who committed suicide would have to be pretty poor to have 0 assets and so that is one less person on welfare which = taxes don't rise. also that is one less person driving around burning fuel, eating the food supply, using resources, etc.

also, what does "i should join him!" even mean, anyway? if someone else commits suicide because another person does it, they were probably pretty suicidal to begin with. the first suicide didn't all of a sudden start a domino effect of problems for people. it's a suicide. it's a death. sad things happen and mature people should be able to move on.

that brings me to your first point, survivor guilt. sure people will be affected by suicide just as they are affected if you take any action. but you can't live or die, heh, just based on the feelings of others.... you have to do your own thing sometimes. survivors should be able to move on like mature people. i can understand a little guilt, but i really can't understand that much. you do what you can and that's that.

Firstly, the person I quoted implied that if someone commits suicide because of their own feelings, there will be no problems left for other people to deal with. I'm not sure if they meant that, but if they did, it's false. My list was not meant to be all-inclusive, nor was it meant to say that all of these problems are experienced by all survivors.

Secondly, it isn't "dumb." emotion_facepalm



Having no assets does not mean that you are on welfare. Many people rent a place and live paycheck to paycheck. Many successful suicides are actually teenagers still living with their parents. Regardless, removing myself from society does not mean that the net financial contribution is a gain or zero. My parents have spent considerable financial and emotional resources in the hopes that I will one day become a fully functioning adult and productive member of society. If I end my life, it's not just my potential for future resource consumption that I've ended but also my potential for productivity. Arguing from potential is incredibly short-sighted. What if a person had stayed in this life and gone on to cure cancer? What if instead a person had stayed in this life and gone on to murder someone? Or what if they just lived a normal, unremarkable life? What if they had chosen to walk everywhere, eat locally-grown produce, and live simply for the rest of their lives (the opposite of your claims about resource consumption)? You don't know what would have happened, whether they would have contributed good or evil to the world. It's pointless to make those arguments.

You know very well what "I should join him" means. rolleyes Having a loved one take their own life can completely upset your worldview. It most certainly CAN start a domino effect. At the very least, if you had never before even thought about suicide (which I admit is rarer and rarer these days), you now know that suicide exists and that someone you cared about chose that path. I've seen families destroyed by suicide; I've seen families lose multiple members to suicide. Think of a parent, who has--as I noted--spent many years and a considerable amount of their own financial and emotional resources caring for their child. For that child to end it all, just like that, it can really change your outlook on life. I had a friend whose father found her dead in her room one night. He is not the same. He has several other responsibilities so he will not likely kill himself, but this is not a weak man who had prior mental problems. This is a man who lost his precious daughter suddenly, painfully, completely out of the blue. You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind. "Mature people should be able to move on..." Do you even understand the double standard you're portraying: that suicidal people have the right to be suicidal, but if you're suicidal because somebody else blew their damn brains out first then you're immature? There are all sorts of triggers for suicidal thought and most of them can be considered immature by people who have experienced those situations and moved on with their lives. People need to stop ******** idealizing suicidal thoughts as some beautiful, special thing. People hurt, people hurt a lot, people hurt and continue living, people hurt and end it.

This is not a maturity issue, it's a mental health issue. Mental health is affected by heredity and by circumstance. The people around me live with survivor guilt. Every damn day they regret what they did or didn't do, which may or may not have had any ******** impact on their loved one's choice to end it all. There's a man I know who has PTSD because he was there, trying to save his wife as she put a hole in her head.

My main point in most of my posts is that several of you are belittling the feelings of those who are left behind in the wake of a tragedy like suicide. "Well the suicidal person was hurting SOOO MUCH and you guys just don't want to be sad for a couple of days" is the attitude I hear. It's not true, and it's bullshit for you to glorify suicide up on this damn pedestal while you insult most of the people I've ever known. Pain cannot be quantified in the first place, it's ridiculous to try to claim one person has it worse than another, especially while you're making sweeping generalizations about successful suicides versus their living loved ones.

[Nonesuch Solo]

low iq 111

Nonesuch Solo

dolly milk

I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's selfish, if it isn't done with the intent of hurting others.

That's like saying it's selfish to buy yourself lunch, instead of just giving it to a starving homeless person.

Intending to hurt others is not the definition of selfishness.

Selfishness is just trying to do things for your own benefit. I can eat the last slice of pizza because it's tasty, and that's selfish. Am I a bad person for eating the last slice of pizza? Not necessarily. Maybe if I am supposed to be sharing the pizza with somebody else and I've had more than my fair share, then eating the last slice would be a bad thing.

Colloquially, however, many people do associate selfishness with taking things and preventing someone else from having them. When people say "That's so selfish," they mean "You're doing something for yourself and ignoring what someone else needs."

In both ways, suicide can be counted as selfish. Suicide is most often, in developed nations, a reaction to difficulties faced in life. For those experiencing emotional pain, it's a step taken in an effort to end your own misery. And while doing something to ease or end your pain is not inherently bad, it's hard not to know that your choice will negatively impact somebody else.

Now, when people use the word selfish to say that somebody is intending to hurt somebody else (which is even farther along the spectrum than the normal colloquial usage), then that is unlikely to factor into the majority of suicide attempts. Relatively few people who want to end their life are thinking "I want my mom to cry for MONTHS! And my sister, I hope she becomes suicidal too! Hahaha! If I plan this right, my dad will find my corpse and he'll be too traumatized to even look at that room in our house again! This is great!"

In fact, I'd wager the majority of suicides in developed nations are committed by people in emotional distress, which means they aren't necessarily "in their right mind" and so perhaps you cannot truly ascribe malicious selfishness to what they do, since they aren't thinking straight.

i bet pointing out to a suicidal person that they're selfish is really going to help them.

Usually not--there are some people who will stop and think about whether they are being selfish and then choose not to do it--but the discussion was not about how to handle suicidal people. It was about whether or not the choice is a selfish one.

Yes, it is. Either way you slice it:

low iq 111

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

So the answer is yes, it is selfish.

[Joou no Oh]

Nonesuch Solo

Joou no Oh

What is the accuser ultimately at risk of? Feeling bad. (whether it's for thier friend/etc or about thier situation et cetera..) Mourning(worst case scenario), attending a funeral if there's one held.

I'm going to refer to a death which happened in the family for the following.

The survivors are at risk of:

~ Monetary responsibilities including but not always limited to a burial plot, casket, cremation services, containers for cremated remains, venue and officiant for the funeral, airfare, rental cars, hotel rooms...

~ Emotional trauma. The partner of the deceased owned the house and was at home with the nine year old while they all argued through locked doors, while the deceased made the final decision, and while the partner tried to resuscitate. Afterwards, the partner's parents volunteered to tear up the bloodied rug, bleach the bloodied walls and floors, tear out the bloodied moulding. Likely it was not just blood but also brain matter. When I arrived to go through the deceased's belongings, these items were piled by the curb as the trash hadn't been picked up yet. I chose the deceased's final outfit.

~ Mental health problems, including but not limited to depression, PTSD, suicidal thoughts.

~ Suicide.

I had more to say last night but I had to run. I'm going to repeat something I posted this morning:

You can't honestly ask for somebody to respect the feelings of a suicidal person while at the same time belittling the feelings of those who are left behind.

Keep reading in my next post if you want.

I will say this: I considered elaborating on that part of my post but chose not to because I assumed that anyone reading this would get what I meant. I should have elaborated after all.

Now I did go on to read your next post and I do agree that suicide is something that affects more than just the vitcim, there's a wide range of possible results and they all deserve thier own attention based on the situation, and the factors that lead up to it. I have never said once that those in the victim's life are not affected at all, and you can go ahead and quote me on that.
Should have said what I meant in detail? Yes. Said they're not affected? Nope. Only in direct comparison, which is explained this time below.***

All that being said, i'm going to call you on doing exactly what I described in my very first post -you're re-villianizing suicidal people while attempting to take the spotlight, place it on the other people and paint them as martyrs. And finally -and this is the part that's not only triggering, but sparks violent rage in me- You are TRIVILAIZING victims everywhere and effectively taking the topic of conversation OFF OF THEM. Which is -again- a massive part of how isolation WORKS.
And given that the people who pushed ME towards suicide were nearly all given family and were constantly around me while I gave signs ranging from "Nothing's wrong" to literally passing an older brother by and telling him to his face when he asked where I was going "I'm going to go die.", and given that they did this exact same s**t? You get a burning side-eye now.

Nonesuch Solo

My main point in most of my posts is that several of you are belittling the feelings of those who are left behind in the wake of a tragedy like suicide. "Well the suicidal person was hurting SOOO MUCH and you guys just don't want to be sad for a couple of days" is the attitude I hear. It's not true, and it's bullshit for you to glorify suicide up on this damn pedestal while you insult most of the people I've ever known. Pain cannot be quantified in the first place, it's ridiculous to try to claim one person has it worse than another, especially while you're making sweeping generalizations about successful suicides versus their living loved ones.

Nonesuch Solo

Usually not--there are some people who will stop and think about whether they are being selfish and then choose not to do it--but the discussion was not about how to handle suicidal people. It was about whether or not the choice is a selfish one.

Yes, it is. Either way you slice it:

low iq 111

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

So the answer is yes, it is selfish.

********, I could dissect the irony of your post from here till tomorrow but I have neither the patience nor the emotional bandages to spare for how this is going to leave me afterward(even now) So i'll keep this short:

here is absolutely NOTHING "glorious" about comitting suidice, and for not only the disgusting irony i'm seeing here but the switch-a-roo bullshit you get a giant, massive, ******** eye for that. and a ******** You Too.

***The victim is dead. The victim is dead because they have suffered over a ridiculous amount of time in which anyone close to them could have done something. This topic -while asking about whether or not the act is selfish- is obviously going to also be about people at risk of suicide. It is NOT about the people who surround them AS equal victims. They still have thier lives, they still have a chance of recovery after the fact, Never guaranteed but a CHANCE. They can very well choose to blame the victim and villianize them over and over again for however long they wish with little to no contest which is what many wind up choosing to do -and the person who committed suicide certainly can't defend themselves.

They can't do ANY of that.

And i'm also going to add that in many cases it's those very same people who are a part of the problem I illustrated in pushing the victim towards suicide through isolation and other forms of denying thier validity. Which i'm going to repeat, is what happened to me, AND others I know offline. And they do it using any combination of the words that just came out of your mouth and the mouths of others who've posted here so far bearing the same sentiment.
The act itself can be sudden but the lead-up to? Is never, ever some sort of snap decision, it takes anywhere from weeks to decades to decide on killing yourself, and the whole way through you are dropping signs, or even not! But not showing signs dosen't mean you're not suffering and that's a huge part of the whole trust issue like I said eariler, and part of what makes it so hard to handle for the victim.

Finally: Regarding that dictionary quote -I don't ******** think so. -you don't get to twist and warp it to slander me and other victims. "advantage in disregard of others" There is no advantage in dying, NONE. ZERO. And like I already said(and like everyone else who actually gets it has said) The MAJOR reason they're so driven to do it is out of service to others, the opposite of selfish. You people need to stop playing this tired-a** role-reversal opposites bullshit game.
If you can't empathize with that then i'm not going to judge you, but if you nor anyone else can't take the time to UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS then you need to get on the bus.
And if any of you dare say anything about opinions then ******** you, my suffering and the suffering of others is NEVER an opinion and ya'll need to [******** leave.