Sticky: Official Twilight Series Discussion - Books!

[Soul-Kit]

The Retanator

What I don't like about the books is that I think they're sexist.

Why? Because every female wants the same thing-- a family, children, a big strong man to love them, and are willing to do unthinkable things for it. ((Well, Meyer never talked about what Jessica and Angela want, but every female she did show wanted the same thing))

Rosalie-- Rosalie wanted someone to love her and babies and a family. Of course, this is also due to the role of women in the time period that she was raised in, but even as she experiences a longer, different version of life that spans seventy years, she still wants children so badly that she will result to MURDER to get a child. Edward and Jacob prove that in BD as Jacob thinks snide thoughts about Rosalie, and Edward reads Rose's thoughts and tells Jacob that he was correct.

She saved Emmett because he remotely resembled the baby of a friend that she used to envy, because that friend had a home, a baby, and a big strong man to provide for her. Emmett goes on to be one of THE strongest vampires. He also is shown later in BD to only talk about Rosalie when he's talking about sex. He never once calls her his angel or anything (like he does in Meyer's outtakes that tell his story about how he was changed)-- I don't think. He might have said something, but if he did, it wasn't anything big enough for me to actually REMEMBER, which proves my point.

Also, she doesn't even really save Emmett, because she does not trust herself to have the self-control to change him. Instead, she takes him to Carlisle, a big strong man with massive amounts of self control, because in Meyer's universe, the only people with self-control are the men.

Jasper has self control because he, although unstable and used to a diet of human blood, is around humans all the time, and even though it's really hard for him, he abstains. Even though there is at least one girl on her period all the time at Forks High (if you think about it), and thus bleeding. Jasper smells the blood, and does nothing, because he has self-control.

And we all know Edward's self-control. He's trained himself to ignore the most potent smell of blood to him ever and be around Bella and love her, and even have sex with her.

Carlisle is the Vampire doctor-- the one who's around blood ALL DAY LONG and has developed huge amounts of self control to deal with this.

None of the girls are portrayed as having self control. In fact, Alice is constantly being shown as having NO control over herself, going overboard, and over the top ALL THE TIME. But I'll get to her later.

Anyways, back to Rosalie. She's shown as only thinking about herself. This is showcased in Midnight Sun where Edward describes her thoughts as being a shallow pool because she is only concerned with how pretty she is. Yeah, I realize that there ARE women like that, but if you couple that with all the other women in the book who are only concerned with clothes and fashion, that really is demeaning.

Alice-- Alice says that in one of the books that the minute she opened her eyes after becoming a vampire, she saw Jasper's face in her mind, and knows she's destined for Jasper, who's a warrior. AKA a big strong man. So she doesn't worry, and instead goes to wait for him, and subsequently, she's waiting for her chance to join a peaceful family led by a big strong man.

Alice shows that all women are supposed to do is sit around like Rapunzel in a tower and wait for a guy to come by and save us. Alice had the potential to be a really cool character, but Meyer turned her into someone who would sit around, waiting for a guy, and when he shows up, she's supposed to reform him and turn him into a good person. After she does that, she, like Rosalie, is concerned about clothes and fashion ALL THE TIME. Her mind is filled with having sleepovers, and throwing parties, and fluff. The only time it's shown that she has something REAL on her mind is at the VERY END of BD, when she goes to help her family.

Esme-- She tries to kill herself because her baby is stillborn. Either that, or it dies shortly after it was born. I think it says somewhere that her husband used to beat her. Or, otherwise, it was in a fan fiction that I read. But let's just go with that, and say that he did beat her. She threw herself off a CLIFF (aka TRIED TO KILL HERSELF) because she did not get the ideal family, husband, and child.

And then Carlisle comes out of no where and saves her and turns her into a vampire, and she lives happily ever after with a bunch of "Kids" who aren't even kids because they're all like 70 years old, which fulfills her desire to be a mother. And it shows that all she wants to do is be a mother figure.

I can understand wanting to be a mom, because I want to be a mom, and I'm sure she's good at it, because she's helped stop these people from murdering innocent humans, along with Carlisle. However, I find it ridiculous that she will KILL herself if she doesn't get to be a mom.

Esme teaches us that "If you don't get your goal, go kill yourself, girls." You don't see any of the men throwing themselves off cliffs if they don't meet THEIR goals.

Totally agree with you. If anyone argues that those are only side characters, then I will still shoot you down with this, because this book is killing off feminism.

Edward is 'perfect', Bella is not. Bella always needs to be saved by Edward, and without him, she can't function, but she hasn't even known him for a long time. When she is with him, she can't think, and she can't do anything. She can't even get mad at him, because he short circuits her brain. Complete crap. Then there's also that she can't hit the guys (Vamps and wolves), because she would break her hand? Does that not show that women are the weaklings and we're supposed to be protected by the males? Then Edward is gone and she's doing ever stupider things than before and not caring about anyone else. She nearly dies and Edward, of course, manages to save her sorry a**. Oh, and the part where she gets turned into a vampire really grates on my nerves. She chooses to keep a baby that is ripping her apart. Fine, we'll say that she really wants her kid to live, but then she relies on Edward to save her, again. Then when she is strong enough to 'save' other people, she does it with a shield? Of love and self sacrifice?

This book is just slaughtering feminism. I may not be an crazy supporter of it, but I like to think we're not helpless idiots.

[The Retanator]

I think the breaking of the hand thing might just have been showing that Bella's an idiot and didn't think about what she was doing before she did it.

But what I did think was degrading is that Jacob forced himself on Bella several times, and her father LAUGHED. My father would probably go ninja on his ***. And my dad's the pacifist type.

I think that this book encourages girls to only go after one thing, and that's my beef with it. Essentially, I want to be a Marine AND a Mother... This book would say that that first was is BLASPHEMOUS!

[ryokomayuka]

I will say that it took love for Edward and Bella to fall in love then Romeo and Juliet.

It is possible to love someone and not know why.

[Soul-Kit]

I don't want to be a mother, I want to be an aunt, so I think I'm more screwed than you by this book's standards.

Also the marriage? Screwy. Her parents are supposed to be against young marriages because of what happened to them, but they're like: No, we don't like the idea of marriage, but you love each other so it's fine.

[The Retanator]

ryokomayuka

I will say that it took love for Edward and Bella to fall in love then Romeo and Juliet.

Romeo and Juliet's "Love" was teen love, and that was the POINT. The author was trying to make a statement about teens and their stupid love affairs and how it makes them do stupid things like kill themselves.

SMeyer was trying to say that Edward and Bella's love is the exemplar for all relationships, which it ISN'T!!!!!!!!Q!!!

[Karura Koremanu]

ryokomayuka

I will say that it took love for Edward and Bella to fall in love then Romeo and Juliet.

And thus, you missed the point of Romeo and Juliet. The point was that it WAS stupid, teen love. Twilight makes itself to be like, "THIS LOVE IS PURE AND THE BEST EXAMPLE EVAR" when it's not.

[ryokomayuka]

The Retanator

ryokomayuka

I will say that it took love for Edward and Bella to fall in love then Romeo and Juliet.

Romeo and Juliet's "Love" was teen love, and that was the POINT. The author was trying to make a statement about teens and their stupid love affairs and how it makes them do stupid things like kill themselves.

SMeyer was trying to say that Edward and Bella's love is the exemplar for all relationships, which it ISN'T!!!!!!!!Q!!!

If they had just been honest then they wouldn't have killed themselves. It's about love can heal because after the deaths the two families join.

Edward and Bella were older and have time.

[ryokomayuka]

Karura Koremanu

ryokomayuka

I will say that it took love for Edward and Bella to fall in love then Romeo and Juliet.

And thus, you missed the point of Romeo and Juliet. The point was that it WAS stupid, teen love. Twilight makes itself to be like, "THIS LOVE IS PURE AND THE BEST EXAMPLE EVAR" when it's not.

No at the end the families end their feuding because their two children fell in love. The problems that happened was because of hot tempers and hate and miscomunacations(sp).

edit:I haven't gotten to the end and well I don't know how the love affair is presented. I have seen the movie and only gotten to there Bella is almost crushed by the van.

[The Retanator]

So you think that a love based on looks and smell is a better love than a love that manages to conquer a 300 year old feud that has resulted in countless dead, including two teenagers who were convinced that they were forbidden to love each other?

[ryokomayuka]

The Retanator

So you think that a love based on looks and smell is a better love than a love that manages to conquer a 300 year old feud that has resulted in countless dead, including two teenagers who were convinced that they were forbidden to love each other?

It's also ends two family lines I think.

Anyway, they are two different things. Why did Romeo and Juliet fall in love? What was the cause?

I don't know if one is better because the one was very bloody. The other was different.

[Mankind Member]

The Retanator

What I don't like about the books is that I think they're sexist.

Why? Because every female wants the same thing-- a family, children, a big strong man to love them, and are willing to do unthinkable things for it. ((Well, Meyer never talked about what Jessica and Angela want, but every female she did show wanted the same thing))

Rosalie-- Rosalie wanted someone to love her and babies and a family. Of course, this is also due to the role of women in the time period that she was raised in, but even as she experiences a longer, different version of life that spans seventy years, she still wants children so badly that she will result to MURDER to get a child. Edward and Jacob prove that in BD as Jacob thinks snide thoughts about Rosalie, and Edward reads Rose's thoughts and tells Jacob that he was correct.

She saved Emmett because he remotely resembled the baby of a friend that she used to envy, because that friend had a home, a baby, and a big strong man to provide for her. Emmett goes on to be one of THE strongest vampires. He also is shown later in BD to only talk about Rosalie when he's talking about sex. He never once calls her his angel or anything (like he does in Meyer's outtakes that tell his story about how he was changed)-- I don't think. He might have said something, but if he did, it wasn't anything big enough for me to actually REMEMBER, which proves my point.

Also, she doesn't even really save Emmett, because she does not trust herself to have the self-control to change him. Instead, she takes him to Carlisle, a big strong man with massive amounts of self control, because in Meyer's universe, the only people with self-control are the men.

Jasper has self control because he, although unstable and used to a diet of human blood, is around humans all the time, and even though it's really hard for him, he abstains. Even though there is at least one girl on her period all the time at Forks High (if you think about it), and thus bleeding. Jasper smells the blood, and does nothing, because he has self-control.

And we all know Edward's self-control. He's trained himself to ignore the most potent smell of blood to him ever and be around Bella and love her, and even have sex with her.

Carlisle is the Vampire doctor-- the one who's around blood ALL DAY LONG and has developed huge amounts of self control to deal with this.

None of the girls are portrayed as having self control. In fact, Alice is constantly being shown as having NO control over herself, going overboard, and over the top ALL THE TIME. But I'll get to her later.

Anyways, back to Rosalie. She's shown as only thinking about herself. This is showcased in Midnight Sun where Edward describes her thoughts as being a shallow pool because she is only concerned with how pretty she is. Yeah, I realize that there ARE women like that, but if you couple that with all the other women in the book who are only concerned with clothes and fashion, that really is demeaning.

Alice-- Alice says that in one of the books that the minute she opened her eyes after becoming a vampire, she saw Jasper's face in her mind, and knows she's destined for Jasper, who's a warrior. AKA a big strong man. So she doesn't worry, and instead goes to wait for him, and subsequently, she's waiting for her chance to join a peaceful family led by a big strong man.

Alice shows that all women are supposed to do is sit around like Rapunzel in a tower and wait for a guy to come by and save us. Alice had the potential to be a really cool character, but Meyer turned her into someone who would sit around, waiting for a guy, and when he shows up, she's supposed to reform him and turn him into a good person. After she does that, she, like Rosalie, is concerned about clothes and fashion ALL THE TIME. Her mind is filled with having sleepovers, and throwing parties, and fluff. The only time it's shown that she has something REAL on her mind is at the VERY END of BD, when she goes to help her family.

Esme-- She tries to kill herself because her baby is stillborn. Either that, or it dies shortly after it was born. I think it says somewhere that her husband used to beat her. Or, otherwise, it was in a fan fiction that I read. But let's just go with that, and say that he did beat her. She threw herself off a CLIFF (aka TRIED TO KILL HERSELF) because she did not get the ideal family, husband, and child.

And then Carlisle comes out of no where and saves her and turns her into a vampire, and she lives happily ever after with a bunch of "Kids" who aren't even kids because they're all like 70 years old, which fulfills her desire to be a mother. And it shows that all she wants to do is be a mother figure.

I can understand wanting to be a mom, because I want to be a mom, and I'm sure she's good at it, because she's helped stop these people from murdering innocent humans, along with Carlisle. However, I find it ridiculous that she will KILL herself if she doesn't get to be a mom.

Esme teaches us that "If you don't get your goal, go kill yourself, girls." You don't see any of the men throwing themselves off cliffs if they don't meet THEIR goals.

Perhaps instead of being sexist, Meyer is expressing her general belief of what women want--and I've heard from various sources that part of what women want is to be dominated. And I use that term lightly; I'm not saying women necessarily want to be pinned up against a wall and roughed up, but moreso feel as though they're protected by someone of a higher physical status than themselves. Also, Carlisle would be expected to have more self-control than Rosalie (even if he were female), primarily because he's been a vampire longer than she has and therefore learned to control his thirst and had already turned people into Vampires, whereas Rosalie had not.

[The Retanator]

ryokomayuka

The Retanator

So you think that a love based on looks and smell is a better love than a love that manages to conquer a 300 year old feud that has resulted in countless dead, including two teenagers who were convinced that they were forbidden to love each other?

It's also ends two family lines I think.

Anyway, they are two different things. Why did Romeo and Juliet fall in love? What was the cause?

I don't know if one is better because the one was very bloody. The other was different.

They fell in "Love" through lust. Romeo thought Juliet was gorgeous, and I think that's what Juliet thought about Romeo too, but it's been a long time since I've read the play. But unlike Twilight, it was intentionally written that way.

[ryokomayuka]

Quick question: Is my memory failing me or was this a sticky for a few moments?

[The Retanator]

ryokomayuka

Quick question: Is my memory failing me or was this a sticky for a few moments?

It was a sticky. : D

[CreativeButLazy]

They made a new sticky? And it looks like it's turning into an anti thread. Why does it seem like the only real intelligent conversation you can have about Twilight is when you are criticizing it.