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No.

According to Mako, they quoted me, so it's my fault.

Sorry, guys. emo I'm legit upset about it, seriously.
Makoto Tsuru's avatar

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Elfen song lucy
I'm starting to think someone is getting butthurt over these threads

I don't know but I just want this thread to be good so we won't get deleted again.

@Karu: It's OK, Karu. We forgive you <3
AGAIN!!!!!




The conspiracy theorist in me wants to come out. I'll see what I can do to get the thread up.




Twilight sucks.
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crying
Why does this keep happening to us??
*hugs Franz*
ex o ex Snoof's avatar

Big Pup

We've got to start a legit conversation or it's going to be put in "Friend's Chat" again, I'm sure of it.

-digs something up from Twilight Sucks-

kombatxunit
Why Meyerpires Cannot Exist: An Essay On Vampires
« Thread Started on Apr 13, 2009, 10:11am »
Warning - TLDR

The mythology of vampires is quite deep and wide – almost every nation on earth has mythos, legends, prejudices in one way or another connected to the creature we modern people unified and identified as “vampire”.

For a deep look into the history and variety of the vampire, blood-sucking mythos, I highly recommend Montague Summers’ “Vampire”, a detailed research of the question for all people interested.
I, while talking about vampires in general, will try to step by step explain and show why exactly the Meyerpires are a breed of fictional creatures that have not only nothing to do with vampires, but which cannot exist in ANY fictional setting due to their total absurdness.


What is a vampire in the widest interpretation possible? A vampire is a creature of superhuman or transhuman origin that requires human blood to exist. Please note the “requires human blood to exist” – it’s the central and most important point of the argument that I’m going.

We will look at the vampire from the traditional point first, to see how people usually tried to rationalize them.
The traditional, folklore view on vampires is of course, mystical and supernatural. Vampires, “upirs” in Slavic mythology, “vrykolakos” in Hellenic culture, different African and eastern analogues of the creature, are all products of supernatural forces interfering with the ordinary plane of existence.
The most common, Central European breed of the vampire has many ways of being created.
For example:
- being bitten by a wolf
- being killed suddenly and violently, leaving the spirit wander in revenge
- being cursed (“may the earth expunge you!”)
- being subjected to anathema by the church
- practicing black magic or Satanism
- being a criminal killed improperly
- forming a contract with the devil
- etc

The most formal of all explanations is that a person, who had led quite a dubious lifestyle, upon dying, does not go to hell, but, upon his own wish and the Satan’s help, becomes a living corpse doing the devil’s bidding, and of course, like any demonic force of evil which shouldn’t otherwise walk the earth, requires the blood of the living people to continue its blasphemous existence. Because Satan has no power to actually resurrect creatures, he utilizes this flawed, twisted version of resurrection. A vampire in this state is pretty much invulnerable, however it can be killed or stopped – with iron, garlic and so on, by burning or decapitation.
However, again, in European tradition, a vampire is not merely an animated corpse. It appears to be alive when active, not rotting, and actually looking like a living, breathing creature. His nails and hair continue growing, and when staked, his wounds spurt fresh blood. He also retains much of his conciousness, unlike, for example such animated corpses as zombies. The vampire, therefore, is an emissary of Devil on earth, since real demons are purely spiritual beings.
Such is, for example, count Vlad Tzepesh, who had allegedly contracted with Satan to remain immortal and continue his bloody path on earth.
Other common attributes of a traditional vampire include fangs (with which it sucks the blood out of the victim), clawed hands, purely metaphysical abilities such as turning into a bat, snake, wolf or vermin, turning into vapour щк becoming invisible. It could also transform other people into vampires by biting them and injecting the venom – resulting in many a vampire epidemic in European and Mediterranean villages.

Of course, the vampire has his weaknesses, as any folklore being. He’s afraid of iron, cannot come inside a person's house unless invited, is “allergic” to garlic and some sort of wood. Some vampires cannot stand sunlight, others, like the kallikadzaros can operate during the day. Decapitation and burning of remnants is the best way to destroy the bloodsucker, staking isn’t always effective, as well as the cross and holy water.

However, as diverse the folklore vampires are, the main point – sucking the blood of living creatures – remains valid throught nations and epochs.


As science set in, the supernatural veil became to slip away from the vampire mythos. It became clear that serial murderers, abundance of cannibals and necrophiliacs, the imperfection of medicine that many a times have given a verdict of death to comatose or unconscious people, resulting in live burials, the general madness of the dark ages of mankind, along with a whole variety of psychic illnesses that flourished in times of prejudice, dimness and extreme religiosness, gave the ground to the myth.

But, through romantic literature of the 18th century, the image of the vampire, a creature of the night, seductive and immortal, had firmly set into the mass conciousness. And new times demanded new justification for vampires. A scientific or pseudo-scientific one.
So, the genre of “urban fantasy” had come up with new breeds and new theories of vampirism. This is where we get to the idea of “scientifically possible” vampire, the one that Stephanie Meyer too claims to invent in her novels.

The modern, non-supernatural vampires can be roughly divided into two groups:
- vampires by race
- vampire by infection

The “racial” vampires are a breed of scientifically justified vampire common to such works of fiction such as “Blade” or “Underworld”. This is what these vampires are:

There’s a possibility, that during human evolution, a new race had stemmed through different mutations. A parasitic sapiens, physiologically quite different from its predecessor. Main physiological traits, listed down in order of believability
- vulnerability to light (can be explained very good – there is a certain gene or group of genes responsible for such a condition as “porphyria”, “light allergy”, which manifests itself in extreme irritation and inflammation of skin exposed to sunlight. This genetical sickness may have been another real occurrence that spawned the vampire myth and can be easily extrapolated as a condition on a whole race of human-evolved creatures)
- allergy to silver and garlic
- increased speed, reaction and strength (can be explained too – we are not the limit to evolution of homo sapiens sapiens. Mere chimpanzees are far more fast, strong and have better reaction than ordinary humans. Nerves, and the brain core can too could evolve. If the creaturs are nocturnal, better eyesight is a must)
- Enlarged canines
- The need to consume blood in order to remain alive (let’s suggest that this race has another genetic defect – their bone marrow doesn’t produce enough red and white blood cells in order to keep the person alive for a long time, meaning, that the creature, like a parasite, needs to get the fresh plasma from an outer source. During millennia, their organism changes so that their innate white cells or antigens can suppress the antigens and white cells of the blood they consume, so that there won’t be any problems in fusing different blood types. This also means that they don’t INDIGEST blood, but absorb it in the trachea or something through capillary system and such)
- The need to consume blood in order to feed. (now this is harder – blood by itself isn’t actually a very nutritious substance for such a huge creature as a human, but lets say it contains something totally important to the vampire organism which it cannot produce itself).
- Fast and extremely full regeneration. (yes, some vertebrae species can regenerate parts of their body, like lizards, but in humans, regeneration is slow and only in tissue – people cannot regrow bones or organs. Vampire possess abilities of a star-fish when it comes to regeneration – can be explained through mutation and unblocking of dormant genes, but still a bit hard to justify)

Basically, these are modern, scientific vampires. There’s not mysticism here – no turning intto bats, they can be well observed in mirrors, etc. Of course, being predatory, but as sentient as their “prey”, they needed to hide the fact that they are basically, human-shaped leeches.
These are the most widespread modern vampires. Sometimes their UV/garlic/silver/ allergy is so strong that they turn to ash, but that’s probably the most dramatic of things considering them. They’re not corpses, not living dead, just a different subspecies of humans. Hard to kill due to regeneration, have a longer lifespan, but still – alive.

The only thing that stands out here is that these “racial” vampires can still turn normal humans into the same vampires. Now this is hard to explain from a scientific point of view. No venom, saliva, or such can turn one specie into another. But about that more detailed next.

The other justification, is that vampires have become such through contamination by some other microorganism that alters the human physiology to a point that he becomes a vampire. Lets say, this organism infest the mitochondrias or something, and you get all the symptoms/benefits of a parasitic creature.
The effects of this contamination are the same as listed in the “racial” vampires category, only the cause is different. For example, this method is working in the “Ultraviolet” comic series and movie, where the infected people are dubbed as “hemophags”(literally, “blood eaters”).

Now in this case, the infection of other people works pretty good. A vampire gets infected by the microorganism/virus, his physiology changes due to it, and voi-la – a new vampire. Unlike the previous concept, it works because nor trans-specie mutation happens - a person doesn't become a different kind of human, he just gets symptoms and changes in his biology.

Sometimes, these both theories get mixed. Like, say, the innate vampires are the carriers of the infection, breeding amongst themselves and adjusting to it on such a high level that they are born vampires and are a higher caste, and the freshly infected, “turned” humans are a lower caste. There also can be made a connection to the traditional folklore bloodsuckers in the form of the virus working/penetrating cells only when the subject is in clinical death and his bodily tissues start necrotizing. Anything.
Again, NOT living corpses.

So. The modern vampire is a predatory/parasitic nocturnal subspecie of homo sapiens sapiens, that requires fresh blood to function, regenrates abnormally fast from heavy damage, and as a predator, has moderately superior senses/strengths.
Additionally, things like telepathy might occur. But not always.

And now, with all this knowledge, we come to analyzing Meyerfagpires from these positions.

Meyerpires as scientifically justified vampires from a physiological point of view:

What Stephanie Meyer tries to convey, is that the vampire venom (of unknown nature) turns a perfectly normal human being into an immortal being with 25 pairs of chromosomes, silica-based skin and inner tissues. Uh…yeah.

Let us look at this closer.
Firstly, you cannot add to an existing creature 2 pairs of chromosomes. It’s impossible. Like TOTALLY impossible. Unless you crack open the nucleus of each of the organisms cells simultaneously, stuff in the chromosomes, and watch the creature die. But it’s still impossible, with chemical agents, nanomachines or anything of the sort. But ok.

Secondly. You can’t change one lifeform into another. That means, that ok, lets for the sake suggest that silica, not carbon-based, lifeforms did exist. Or could exist, whatever. That alone, the base element, would make them so different on the physiological level that mere chemical interaction with them would be hard and unpredictable, but going from one to another – no. It’s totally impossible. It’s alchemical transmutation, which never worked due restrictions put on it by fundamental physics laws. Therefore, no venom or whatever can change those laws

Why do I think that Meyerpires are silica-based creatures? Rock-hard skin and tissues that reflect sunlight. No need in breathing (ie, of using oxygen as a reagent for carbon-based lifeforms chemical processes).
That could be a plausible explanation, but… The human structure remains. Meyer basically states, that a human, with all his complex organic structure, neirons, muscles, tissues, cells, can be disassembled and then again assembled from new materials AND remain mentally and structurally the same. ********. This is the most absurd thing I heard of.


Thirdly. So we have these silicon, perfect, non-breathing, super-strong and fast (on any level, include mental) creatures, which have retained human structure, but on a different basis. Their physiology is now based around this mysterious “venom”, it's used as both lymph and blood, and joint liquids, in the cells, everywhere. WHY DO THET REQUIRE THE CARBON-BASED, HEMOGLOBIN-FILLED HUMAN BLOOD THEN?!1!1!!!! By the course of logic, it no longer can play any role in their chemistry, because it’s vastly different and non-complimentary to it any more.
Meyer never explains that. She can’t, because it has no explanation.
Blood in human organism is used for 3 primary functions: to carry oxygen from lungs to tissues and cells; to transport a whole variety of chemical composites to the cells; to transport immune system cells and etc.
However. Meyerpires don’t need oxygen. Their body biology is different, so they don’t need hormones, special agents regulating heartbeat or brain functions, so a miss there too. They don’t eat, therefore they require no proteins, carbohydrates or fat. And thirdly, they needn’t the immune systems, because they’re perfect and no virus had adapted to their silica-based biology.

Another funny thing – they don’t have blood, but their veins are still blue. And eye vessels are red. Mysterious.

Answer: blood, human blood, any blood, is absolutely useless to them. They’re autonomous creatures with a radically different structure and biology than any other vertebrae on the planet. If I were to logically continue their concept, I’d rather tell that they need to bathe in sunlight to get energy like ******** solar panels. That’s at least believable..

So, the whole idea of creatures Meyer described, becomes absurd. If they don’t need to suck blood to sustain their existence, they’re not vampires.
That’s why they’re not vampires. Not because their diamond-coated skin sparkles.

Of course, a traditional folklore vampire doesn’t require blood for biological reasons either, due to it being a corpse. It requires the blood due to supernatural reasons, as a part of the deal with the devil or due to the rules of their “aetherreality”. But there’s no mystical element in Twilight, therefore, this doesn’t work too.

25 chromosomes. From 23. Woah.

Also, such a fundamental difference cannot allow cross-breeding. Sorry, Nessie, but you’re as impossible as everything else.


Meyerpires as scientifically justified vampires from ecological point of view:

Ok, now for the other part. Forget about what’s above, and lets agree – ok, Meyerpires do somehow function on human blood as an engine function on gasoline. Whatever. Time to look at their absurdness from another point of view.

So, these vampires of Twilight are a natural predator of homo sapiens sapiens. This too, doesn’t work for the following reasons.

One of the main weapons of this predator is luring the prey in by smell. It’s quite a common thing in nature, yes, Stephenie… for IMMOBILE predators or predators which attack by surprise.
Like a certain specie of a carnivorous plant attracts flies and bugs it eats by producing a delicious smell of rotting meat, which the flies adore. The insect flies straight into the plants deadly embrace… voila.
Ok.
Another weapon of the Meyerpire is attracting the human prey by being pretty, shiny, and sparkly. Yes, Stephenie, it does happen in nature. Like a certain deepwater fish attracts its prey by dangling a organicly luminescent protrusion from its fin, making other fish swim straight into the the predators jaws.

But yet ANOTHER weapon of a Meyerpire, is amazing speed and strength, which of course happens in nature – cheetah’s chasing antelopes, crocodiles crushing the necks of zebras.

However, note that each predator hunts a specific specie or species and utilizes the environment and the preys own traits to hunt. A cheetah doesn’t attract the antelope with the smell of fresh grass. A crocodile doesn’t have a luminescent tongue or sparkling scales to mesmerize the zebra.

No predator has all of the available options to hunt its prey. It’s neither needed nor possible.

But Meyer’s vampires are an exclusion from this rule.

Which too is weird – why is the predator in hundreds of times superior to it’s prey?

It’s quite easy to see. Humans aren’t especially fast or strong. They have good eyesight, yes, but not the best reactions, if untrained. We have quite a poor sense of smell, decent hearing… Normal omnivorous mammals. A tiger, bear, jaguar or a crocodile would do us just well – without having sparkly skin, or an attractive smell. Still, we are quite agile and intelligent, so there are chances for a human to escape a bear’s claws. And that is absolutely normal.
A Twilight vampire is so superior a predator, that it doesn’t leave a single opening for its prey, which is against natural laws. Predators like them don’t exist in real life because they would’ve eradicated the whole population of the animals they prey upon in the shortest time possible, and then die from starvation. The nature isn’t an idiot. Lions hunts have a 1 success to 30 attempts ratio. Predators get maimed and killed by their prey.

But Meyerpires?

No, what I can see as the only believable part of their biology, is hardened skin. That could evolve when man had learned to use weapons and more so, firearms. But then, vampires are the same as humans outwardly and intellectually, so they could use the same weapons and need not an additional defensive mechanism.

However, they have it ALL. Which is absurd. It’s like saying that a 200lb hunter with a sniper rifle EVOLVED as a rabbits natural predator. With the ******** gun. Though even that is incorrect since a rabbit can dash to some hole where the hunter can’t get him even with the rifle or whatever.
From a Meyerpire there’s no way to escape. He’s too fast, too strong, has superior senses, can hear and smell you from miles away and is AS SMART and able as you are.

I say – bullshit.

Total fail of logic.


Conclusion.

Vampires created by S. Meyer are not only uncanonical or totally non-vampyric. As we can see, they do not live up to the standards the writer herself set as an attempt to show believable specie of transhumans. They cannot exist in the novels seemingly realistic conditions due to them being completely absurd and impossible. They are freaks, a creation of a very un-educated and chaotic mind, bearing dozens of inner contradictions.

Every trait, every explanation to their traits, biology, history, appearance are so “out-of-the-head”, so random and completely unrequired, that it amazes me how can someone create a concept with so many thing not tying together at all, with so little common sense. It's pretty much evident that Meyer threw in typical vampire traits, her own bullshittery, made a weak attempt by looking at all this "from a different fresh angle", realised she couldn't justify her horredeous imagination, and left it half-assed for the sake of being "pretty" and "ORIGINUL".

It’s beyond me, and it’s fail.


DISCUSS
Well, I can see where they are getting at in that lovely rant/eassy/research. But to have the same stereo types in every single vampire literature is sort of saying "I've gave up my originallity to pleased the fans, and satisfied their needs and not my own." Personally, it's good to give your own spin on them, but don't take away too much of what the vampire reputation is.

Or so I see it.
I must have been on another planet after my last post. I didn't even notice this was the fourth version. I did wonder at the time why we were still at page one. And Now I know. Duh! sweatdrop
The Forgotten Atori
Well, I can see where they are getting at in that lovely rant/eassy/research. But to have the same stereo types in every single vampire literature is sort of saying "I've gave up my originallity to pleased the fans, and satisfied their needs and not my own." Personally, it's good to give your own spin on them, but don't take away too much of what the vampire reputation is.

Or so I see it.


For me when it comes to writing vampires its become a case of being original is being UNoriginal.
It takes a good writer to keep to the limitations of the vampire mythos and take the spin via the plot.
I have finally changed my signature. Is there anyway that it can be improved? And should I remove the fullstop?
I sort of feel like adding a mini Twilight Suzuka too. Keep the Twilight theme a bit more.
Zelfire Evertime's avatar

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Another, my word.. I swear.. I hope this doesn't reach version 5 for.. what ever reason. You take what you need.. oh well.

Finished watching the greatness that was Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust, and recommended it to a few Twilitards as well. Haven't heard back from them, but apparently I get asked this a lot.

'Does the main character fall in love with a handsome vampire?'

I answer no of course, after all.. D is a Dhampir. Since the main character is a Hunter, not some idiot out for love. Apparently Twilitards have thought that only good vampire related media needs to have the main character falling FOR a vampire. I swear..

I love their reaction when I say the main character kills Vampires for the money on their heads. They say that's brutal and bleh bleh.. uhhgg.. They clearly don't know what it takes to be a Vampire Hunter.
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V.4?

Holy s**t. gonk
_

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.........I swear to God if this thread gets canned, I'll leave Gaia for good....
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I can't believe we're already on V.4
*grumble*
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Nekoshojo27
.........I swear to God if this thread gets canned, I'll leave Gaia for good....

What? Don't leave us! crying
ex o ex Snoof's avatar

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Griping's probably going to get the thread canned, guys I:

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