Korra is not a "b***h" = The Double Standard should stop

[ashitagaaru]

[Ren The Ryoko]

ashitagaaru

Omorose Panya

ashitagaaru

[Ren The Ryoko]

How are you defining the word "b***h" then? Because most common uses of it are highly gendered and have a female-oriented connotation to the insult.

a*****e, b***h, ********, dickhead, ********, bugger, shithead, dickweed.

One of those general insults. They're all the same in my mind. :/

Only the first two are commonly used to describe the whole of someone's personality (and thus are not generally situational), and only "b***h" is used as a reference to power. A woman is a b***h for being in a position of power and exercisng that power. A man is an a*****e for a particular thing he does, like coping a feel.

Nuance, child.

But again, I disagree.
Just because they are commonly used like that does not mean I am using them like that.
Nuance is a strange thing. While I am aware of it's general usage, I don't really care.

Here's a novel idea: You don’t get to ignore socially ingrained connotations because they are inconvenient.

I don't ignore them. It's that I don't subscribe to them.
If people think X, then X is true.
If people say X, they think X. If I say X, but I mean Y, people still think I'm saying X. But I try to explain I mean Y.
Am I wrong in not caring what the general public thinks? Is it not socially constructed and the problem in society and not me? Or is it both our faults furthering the word but continuing its usage in inappropriate contexts?

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

ashitagaaru

[Ren The Ryoko]

ashitagaaru

Omorose Panya

ashitagaaru

[Ren The Ryoko]

How are you defining the word "b***h" then? Because most common uses of it are highly gendered and have a female-oriented connotation to the insult.

a*****e, b***h, ********, dickhead, ********, bugger, shithead, dickweed.

One of those general insults. They're all the same in my mind. :/

Only the first two are commonly used to describe the whole of someone's personality (and thus are not generally situational), and only "b***h" is used as a reference to power. A woman is a b***h for being in a position of power and exercisng that power. A man is an a*****e for a particular thing he does, like coping a feel.

Nuance, child.

But again, I disagree.
Just because they are commonly used like that does not mean I am using them like that.
Nuance is a strange thing. While I am aware of it's general usage, I don't really care.

Here's a novel idea: You don’t get to ignore socially ingrained connotations because they are inconvenient.

I don't ignore them. It's that I don't subscribe to them.
If people think X, then X is true.
If people say X, they think X. If I say X, but I mean Y, people still think I'm saying X. But I try to explain I mean Y.
Am I wrong in not caring what the general public thinks? Is it not socially constructed and the problem in society and not me? Or is it both our faults furthering the word but continuing its usage in inappropriate contexts?

That isn't how communication works.
You can't just use problematic and offensive language in an "inoffensive way" because no one else will know that's what you are doing. Instead you just offend people and continue generating those stereotypes.

[ashitagaaru]

[Ren The Ryoko]

That isn't how communication works.
You can't just use problematic and offensive language in an "inoffensive way" because no one else will know that's what you are doing. Instead you just offend people and continue generating those stereotypes.

Hopefully there comes a point where it becomes like the term ******.
Black people, at least at my school, use it freely understanding it isn't a racial epithet directed at their skin color, but a term of endearment being one of the ingroup.
*though white people still can't use it.

I may be propagating stereotypes inadvertently, but while we may both be speaking English, we have different connotations for the same words.
Society needs to change the definition so with time it loses it's original connotation and perhaps adopts it as a positive trait. It won't be easy, but since when is social change easy?
Communication is what society makes it. Always question "what do you mean by that?".
*unless we speak Esperanto or something.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

ashitagaaru

[Ren The Ryoko]

That isn't how communication works.
You can't just use problematic and offensive language in an "inoffensive way" because no one else will know that's what you are doing. Instead you just offend people and continue generating those stereotypes.

Hopefully there comes a point where it becomes like the term ******.
Black people, at least at my school, use it freely understanding it isn't a racial epithet directed at their skin color, but a term of endearment being one of the ingroup.
*though white people still can't use it.

I may be propagating stereotypes inadvertently, but while we may both be speaking English, we have different connotations for the same words.
Society needs to change the definition so with time it loses it's original connotation and perhaps adopts it as a positive trait. It won't be easy, but since when is social change easy?
Communication is what society makes it. Always question "what do you mean by that?".
*unless we speak Esperanto or something.

We aren't there yet.
I'm well aware that language evolves and changes. But it isn't useful if the vast majority of people are using a word one way and you, without context or explanation, use it a different way.

[ashitagaaru]

[Ren The Ryoko]

ashitagaaru

[Ren The Ryoko]

That isn't how communication works.
You can't just use problematic and offensive language in an "inoffensive way" because no one else will know that's what you are doing. Instead you just offend people and continue generating those stereotypes.

Hopefully there comes a point where it becomes like the term ******.
Black people, at least at my school, use it freely understanding it isn't a racial epithet directed at their skin color, but a term of endearment being one of the ingroup.
*though white people still can't use it.

I may be propagating stereotypes inadvertently, but while we may both be speaking English, we have different connotations for the same words.
Society needs to change the definition so with time it loses it's original connotation and perhaps adopts it as a positive trait. It won't be easy, but since when is social change easy?
Communication is what society makes it. Always question "what do you mean by that?".
*unless we speak Esperanto or something.

We aren't there yet.
I'm well aware that language evolves and changes. But it isn't useful if the vast majority of people are using a word one way and you, without context or explanation, use it a different way.

And that's what I'm trying to say. You should explain. Conversation might take significantly longer, but that's a small price to pay for social change. Know the context, know the meaning. Call them out if used in an offensive manner.
And I come to a close. Good night all.

[W4NT0N 50UP]

ashitagaaru

I think that Mako is a b***h. But Bolin is no dumb slut. I'm sure he's perfectly aware of his dumb comments.
Also, Asami is also a b***h, but for completely different reasons.
Korra is one of those who show their opinion through a bullhorn. Not necessarily a b***h but certainly irritating at times.I'd say most her reactions were justifiable given the situations.

This was your very first post to this thread. You used b***h in a derisive, negative, and overall offensive fashion. Stop doing that.

[W4NT0N 50UP]

[Ren The Ryoko]

I think everyone just needs to sit down and have a conversation about how you don't get to just redefine words willy nilly and ignore socially ingrained connotations because they are inconvenient.
Like, that's not how language works. That is not efficient communication.

To be honest I doubt they really believe any of that horseshit about words not having any connotations or meanings except what an individual makes of them. I'm pretty sure almost all of them would get very upset if whatever slur would most applied to them was thrown in their face or they were described as a thing or an animal.

Conversations like these always really confuse me because it seems really easy to say, "Sorry I offended you. I shouldn't say that and I'll work harder to pay attention to my language." No justifications, no passive-aggression, no wordy response about free speech or human nature or how the common uses of words don't matter, but gah.

[ashitagaaru]

W4NT0N 50UP

ashitagaaru

I think that Mako is a b***h. But Bolin is no dumb slut. I'm sure he's perfectly aware of his dumb comments.
Also, Asami is also a b***h, but for completely different reasons.
Korra is one of those who show their opinion through a bullhorn. Not necessarily a b***h but certainly irritating at times.I'd say most her reactions were justifiable given the situations.

This was your very first post to this thread. You used b***h in a derisive, negative, and overall offensive fashion. Stop doing that.

I didn't say I would stop using it offensively. Just not necessarily to a certain gender or trait.

[W4NT0N 50UP]

ashitagaaru

I didn't say I would stop using it offensively. Just not necessarily to a certain gender or trait.

You could have saved a lot of time by just saying that rather than arguing, "I define things the way I want to" because it still comes to the same base: you don't give a s**t that you're being offensive. And that's not something a dose of knowledge is going to cure. Also kind of kills your whole argument about the word's meaning being neutralized if you continue to use it as an insult. It's never going to not be gendered when the root itself is a reference to a female breeding animal, and the way you're using it it's never going to not be insulting so it's still lose-lose, ain't it?

[Growliere]

It's still an offensive word, but I don't think the fact that it has gendered connotations makes it worse. What else are they going to call a female they dislike? They can't call her a slut or whore because she isn't promiscuous at all. And she isn't mean-spirited enough to be called a jerk or a**. So the only remaining applicable feminine insult title is b***h. Would you call a homosexual man a dyke or would you call a lesbian a twink?

And I'm sure at least some of the hatedom would be nostalgia-raging and hate the protagonist regardless of gender just on the basis that it isn't Aang.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

Troy the confuzed

It's still an offensive word, but I don't think the fact that it has gendered connotations makes it worse. What else are they going to call a female they dislike? They can't call her a slut or whore because she isn't promiscuous at all. And she isn't mean-spirited enough to be called a jerk or a**. So the only remaining applicable feminine insult title is b***h. Would you call a homosexual man a dyke or would you call a lesbian a twink?

And I'm sure at least some of the hatedom would be nostalgia-raging and hate the protagonist regardless of gender just on the basis that it isn't Aang.

How about just..don't use gendered insults? Especially ones that have a double standard when use to describe men and women.

[Growliere]

[Ren The Ryoko]

Troy the confuzed

It's still an offensive word, but I don't think the fact that it has gendered connotations makes it worse. What else are they going to call a female they dislike? They can't call her a slut or whore because she isn't promiscuous at all. And she isn't mean-spirited enough to be called a jerk or a**. So the only remaining applicable feminine insult title is b***h. Would you call a homosexual man a dyke or would you call a lesbian a twink?

And I'm sure at least some of the hatedom would be nostalgia-raging and hate the protagonist regardless of gender just on the basis that it isn't Aang.

How about just..don't use gendered insults? Especially ones that have a double standard when use to describe men and women.

I wasn't insulting her and I don't support the people who are. How about no one insults anyone? That's not realistic, and I feel like there aren't many non-gendered insults that really apply to her. I don't see as much as a double standard here as you do.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

Troy the confuzed

[Ren The Ryoko]

Troy the confuzed

It's still an offensive word, but I don't think the fact that it has gendered connotations makes it worse. What else are they going to call a female they dislike? They can't call her a slut or whore because she isn't promiscuous at all. And she isn't mean-spirited enough to be called a jerk or a**. So the only remaining applicable feminine insult title is b***h. Would you call a homosexual man a dyke or would you call a lesbian a twink?

And I'm sure at least some of the hatedom would be nostalgia-raging and hate the protagonist regardless of gender just on the basis that it isn't Aang.

How about just..don't use gendered insults? Especially ones that have a double standard when use to describe men and women.

I wasn't insulting her and I don't support the people who are. How about no one insults anyone? That's not realistic, and I feel like there aren't many non-gendered insults that really apply to her. I don't see as much as a double standard here as you do.

There are plenty of ways to criticize a characters and people in non-gendered, especially such problematically gendered, ways.

[Atlas The Wicked]

W4NT0N 50UP

Sorry for the late reply, this is just a major headache to respond to not just because apparently you can't make paragraphs but because I've had this conversation a dozen times in a dozen threads and you might say you're not missing the point, but right now it's flying way over your head like a fly ball into the stands.

Atlas The Wicked

I am only saying the word b***h because it was used before me. I find anyone, male or female that cocky a bad character trait.

Doesn't negate the fact that even in context of the conversation you said they weren't calling Korra a b***h "in a bad way", as if there's a good way to negatively call someone a b***h.

Atlas The Wicked

The best characters in the show are humble and the other characters are most dependent on them.

I don't know what you mean by "best" character. That's kind of a personal opinion. I personally really, really love Bolin and Amon, to name a couple other than, like, the rest of the cast, but I don't think they're "humble". In general I enjoy characters who are proud of themselves even if it's excessive and even when they have nothing to be proud of. I like watching them bluster about and succeed and I like it even better when they're broken. That's just me, though, and I wouldn't say that they're the best type of characters.

Atlas The Wicked

I don't see it as a double standard and i think the people who make it out to be like that are just upset shes a cocky butt head. They might not know how to express what they actually think of Korra, and have to revert to just calling her a b***h.

That's why it's such a problem. You can call call a guy an a*****e if he's too rude, or too arrogant, and even then it's not always meant in a disparaging way because god knows there are plenty of male characters out there who are insufferable asses who the audience still manages to love (i.e. Malcolm Tucker from The Thick of It), but "b***h" is a catch-all term reserved largely for women regardless of what they do as long as they're doing something that you don't personally agree with. And don't give me this whole "But men are called bitches too!" bullshit because it's not nearly as prevalent and that's an entirely different situation that's not any better. Yes, sometimes it's meant in an empowering way (like hbic argubaly) but that's not how it was used in this context and that's aside from the conversation entirely.

Atlas The Wicked

I didn't miss the point i just don't see it the same way as her on how its a double standard.

Then you are missing the point.

Atlas The Wicked

I just think she generalized males as a** holes who hate strong women, and that's why i put my two cents in.

Absolutely no mention in the original post had anything about men who hate strong women.

Atlas The Wicked

From reading this thread, well the first few pages, it seemed like she only had contact with one person who thought that way.

One person sparked it. They were the proverbial straw, but plenty of threads before it were talking about how much they disliked Korra, because she was brash and proud, traits that would be admired in a male character, and some outright stated that it was because she was a woman, and she was called her a b***h there too. If you hung out here the first two weeks of Korra's premiere you'd be appalled by how much people genuinely hated her. Now the attention's moved to Asami.

Atlas The Wicked

Then she makes a thread and totally is accusing males of hating strong women characters.

There were no accusations of men hating strong female characters.

Atlas The Wicked

Men have to keep up the stigma of always being confident because some women say they want a strong man. Then when its convenient want a sensitive man.

...What. I don't even know how to respond to this. This doesn't even have anything to do with LoK or writing female characters with agency.

Atlas The Wicked

I had no problem with her taking about how something made her angry that was a double standard By doing that though she tried to use men as a scapegoat saying that we hate strong women.

No one mentioned anything about men as scapegoats. Again, you completely missed the point and read man-hating into comments that didn't have any.

See, but this is all the same stuff you are arguing, yet the OP was doing the same thing. So regardless of how she feels if she is that much of a hypocrite i think what ever she says on the subject is invalid. As for you have not really seen much of what you were saying, but i feel a lot of people on this thread are using a double standard to show case a double standard. From what i gathered she met ONE person who said she was a b***h then says how men hate strong women. that's stereotyping and it makes double standard, and yes man-hating just like how she was calling out women-hating.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

Atlas The Wicked

See, but this is all the same stuff you are arguing, yet the OP was doing the same thing. So regardless of how she feels if she is that much of a hypocrite i think what ever she says on the subject is invalid. As for you have not really seen much of what you were saying, but i feel a lot of people on this thread are using a double standard to show case a double standard. From what i gathered she met ONE person who said she was a b***h then says how men hate strong women. that's stereotyping and it makes double standard, and yes man-hating just like how she was calling out women-hating.

I don't know what exactly I've said you make you think I was being hypocritical.

I've spoken to and seen SEVERAL people who held this opinion of Korra for this reason. More than on in this very thread, in fact.

And I never said that MEN hate strong women. I commented on how often audiences, both men and women, stigmatize female characters that act in traditionally masculine ways.

I'm not saying everyone feels that way, I'm not saying men all feel that way, and I'm not man hating. You seem to have deeply misread my posts.