Rude comments?

[Nathaniel Mea]

hakubaikou

Touché. ^_^ You've got me there. Although I still think it'd be proper to ask first.

BTW, nice to see you again.

Of course, asking is always best. Or at least link to it so if they don't want to see it, they can ignore the link.

@Uronoro

Personally I think this is one of the few threads that have brought up real issues lately. Be that it was started by someone that wouldn't know a crit if it bit her in the eye, but the issues that it has brought discussion upon has been sound.

At least this thread is better then the million "draw me" threads or "Who's your fave artist?" threads.

[Uronoro]

Nathaniel Mea

hakubaikou

Touché. ^_^ You've got me there. Although I still think it'd be proper to ask first.

BTW, nice to see you again.

Of course, asking is always best. Or at least link to it so if they don't want to see it, they can ignore the link.

@Uronoro

Personally I think this is one of the few threads that have brought up real issues lately. Be that it was started by someone that wouldn't know a crit if it bit her in the eye, but the issues that it has brought discussion upon has been sound.

At least this thread is better then the million "draw me" threads or "Who's your fave artist?" threads.

True, very true.

[devils I know]

I think this thread has brought up a lot of pertinent issues and valid discussions. It really sums up a lot of feelings people have.


Redlines have really become a standard staple in the PP. I suppose it is a matter of taste, but the only people I've seen opposed to it are you, hakubaikou, and the OP. Perhaps the PP has really changed in temperament, but an overwhelming majority people see it as helpful versus vandalism. Most threads do ask for them now as well.

I'm going to disagree that the red-liner them self has to good at anatomy. I've often had verbal critiques that I couldn't quite understand because the viewer was seeing something different than I was and a not to anatomically correct draw-over helped me to understand them. Just like a non-artist or a beginner artist can give good critique, they can use a red-line effectively. I was just talking to someone the other day who said they feel their own drawing has gotten better due to red-lining because now they're able to see different mistakes or step back and look at their pieces objectively.

I think a written critique is wrong just as often as a red-line is. Only I've seen some pretty convincing, but bad critiques that make you wonder if they're really wrong or not. At least with a red-line you can look at it, and even if you're not good at a anatomy yourself, you can see it's not completely right. I mean, you have to take every critique with a grain of salt.

[hakubaikou]

devils I know, I think it's fine if someone wants red-lining. That's their prerogative. My main objection (disregarding my negative opinion of it in general) is to having something red-lined when unasked for. If someone becomes angry because a critiquer red-lined without permission, I feel that it's a justified reason to be upset.

I agree that written critiques are just as often wrong. However, I do feel that having an incorrect red-line is generally worse.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree as far as red-lining critics who don't know how to draw well themselves. On that, I strongly disagree with you. I feel that only people who have a decent grasp of anatomy should be doing something like that. I think a non-artist or a less advanced artist is perfectly capable of giving in-depth written critique. Because a critique is not just about the anatomy. It can be about a multitude of other aspects of art. And most people are quite capable of seeing and recognizing that something is wrong, even if they don't know exactly how to fix it.

But red-lining is specifically aiming to show a person where to place the lines correctly. And if an artist's technical skills are lacking, and he doesn't even know how to draw anatomy correctly himself, I think he really has no business demonstrating such flawed anatomy in a red-line. He'd be showing the person to place lines in the wrong place. I see no point in replacing the original set of flawed lines with yet another set of flawed lines.

Edit: And I agree with others here in that the conversation in this thread (at least in these later pages) doesn't seem particularly ridiculous to me. It's always nice to find polite and reasonable discussion.

[devils I know]

I suppose we're thinking of red-lines in two different ways. You're thinking of someone who is red-lining to show correct anatomy only--but I'm also thinking of someone who is pointing out a specific area to make themselves more clear. Not every red-line I get is focused on drawing over the anatomy itself, but directing my attention to an area the critiquer couldn't explain with words. I'm not the most eloquent person myself and I use lines to fill in where I can't communicate well enough with words. Or I'll find a photograph to help illustrate my point.

To be honest, I haven't met a whole lot of people whose written critiques made perfect sense unless they are glaringly obvious mistakes. A red-line or a draw over fills in those blanks.

[hakubaikou]

Hmm, okay. That makes a lot more sense. If you were talking strictly of drawing lines over, then I was frankly a little appalled by your earlier statement about skills not being essential.

Personally (and again, strictly my opinion here), I prefer critiques that don't entirely make immediate sense. I like having to work a little to figure out what's wrong. It's like getting a hint without getting an outright answer. I learn better that way, when I'm taking active part in the search.

But I can certainly understand why others would prefer more explicit/clear methods. And when I give critiques, I do try to be as clear as I can. To each his own.

[EtherStream]

hakubaikou

Talen Robotnik

In this case the artist can say that he/she doesn't want redlines in the first post. Of course there can be people who red-line the picture ignoring -or not reading- what the artist said, but this is another thing.

[...]
In everyday society, if you want to do something that might cause offense, you ask first. "Mind if I smoke?" "Mind if I answer this call really quickly?" "Should I take my shoes off in your house?" You don't meet someone and expect them to say upfront, "Hello! Just a few rules first..." I just view it simply as an act of courtesy.

I'm a beginner about critiques, but from what I saw many artists don't think they should ask before red-lining. This act of courtesy is felt like a waste of time (and not only on the net), mainly because, in my opinion, red-lining is no longer felt like something rude that may upset the artist, and it has become a normal critique.

Knowing this an artist should say that he/she doesn't want red-lines. It's sad, but we can't always trust in people's courtesy.

hakubaikou

Talen Robotnik

In my opinion this depends on the artist's will. They may think "Why learning anatomy when I can post my pictures on the forum, get people red-line them and eyeball corrections?" but they may even think "Uhm, so I've always drawn the arms too long... I should pay more attention, hell I should learn anatomy!".

I think that If an artist isn't willing to think critically it doesn't matter if you red-line the drawing or write a perfect critique.

[...]
But say I was an artist who did want to try to figure things out for myself. And someone comes and red-lines my work without me asking for it. I see the red-line. And it's too late. They've shown me the solution before I could work it out on my own. They've just taken the choice away from me.
[...]

Yes, this happens too. It's another potential problem of red-lining, as hakubaikou pointed out early.

hakubaikou

Talen Robotnik

I understand what you mean, but it's kinda inevitable; I like to think that an artist is able to ignore some stylistic choices that don't belong to him/her and to his/her style though.

[...]I think it's more apparent in red-lining, which is why I don't like it and would never ask for it at Gaia. And it's why I'd be angry if someone did want to red-line my work without asking.

As for whether or not an artist can ignore stylistic choices, that depends in part on the skill of the artist. I think beginners are less likely to be able to see the difference since they haven't developed their artist's eye just yet.

That's why I said "I like to thing that an artist is able to ignore some stylistic choices" Because reality is completely another thing. And yes, I was mainly talking about red-lining, because they're visual and has more influence than a written critique (which can contain personal stylistic choices, but since it's not visual artists usually aren't heavily influenced)

[Curly Salami]

I agree with most of you, and this thread grew bigger than I expected.

It may look rude, if someone redlined over somebody's work, but I think Pathos only wanted to help, seeing the other redlines and critiques that she has done. But it just doesn't go the same way for everybody, some people may take it the wrong way. Is there some kind of rule that forbids critiques to redline here in gaia?

Nichole le Fae: If you're not familiar with redlines, and I bet you are now, to avoid any troubles next time, just state in your first post (as the others said) that you don't want any.