opinion on artists who "whitewash" characters?

people who accuse artists of 'whitewashing their characters'?

they have a point	15.4%	[ 2 ]
they should leave the artist alone	15.4%	[ 2 ]
if it's valid constructive art criticism, it´s fine.	69.2%	[ 9 ]
Total Votes:			[ 13 ]

[Athelius]

sort of a rant, sorry stressed

it's not something i see very often, but it's noticeable enough that it really irks me. sometimes when an artist renders an already established black (or sometimes indian) character and the skin colour is a tad too light or lighter than usual there are aggressive comments like: why is he/she so white? please make them the appropriate skin colour (darker). then the whole ''this is an issue of defending africans/people with darker skin and you are being RACIST if you don't agree or if you continue to draw in this way'' stressed

ok, to some extent if it's an already established character like princess tiana for example, i can understand that it's valid artistic criticism when said in a constructive way. but i still believe that ultimately it's the artist's choice and i wish the people who point these things out could be more polite in how they choose their words and also respect the artist's palette.

anyway so i wanted to make some art based on my country (viva fútbol!! we don´t have a team but there's so much hype that i want to do it haha) and as always i check to see how other artists have previously represented the theme i want to do.

so i came across a piece where an artist drew a girl 'representing' my country, and she was fairly light skinned (just an fyi population in my country is very roughly 45% indian, 40% black, and the rest are chinese, portuguese, amerindian and mixed. i myself am mixed). scrolled down to the comments to see someone berating the poor artist for making the girl in the drawing 'too white'. i understand that lighter skinned people are not representative in my country, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. or can't exist. why are you seeing it in terms of race, and not a nationality to be proud of? and the people who make comments like these always seem like they are on a warpath or something, like HOW DARE YOU use your artistic self expression to render a black character even a little bit lighter? how dare you not use the darkest brown available to you? UGH. and quite honestly, i don´t see these comments being given constructively. at all, it almost always seems like an aggressive personal attack on the artist.
seriously? just for comments like what i saw, when i draw my character representing my country i fully intend to make her light skinned and i'll be waiting to see the brave person who challenges me on it scream scream scream

edit; thanks for the replies guys, i'm reading all of them and you're all making some good points. i will reply as soon as i can, i'm sorry if it seems like i'm ignoring but really i'm not i'll be back in a few~

also could someone please say what POC (and any other abbreviations you use in your post) mean? cuzimanidiothnghh

[Eizoryu]

I think arguing "whitewashing" is stupid. Like that whole deal about the last three Disney Princess movies post-The-Princess-and-the-Frog being about white girls. Considering Merida is Scottish, Rapunzel is... Germanic, I think? And Elsa and Anna are Scandinavian.

Arguing the skin color of a fictional character is asinine, in general, not just whitewashing. I see it all the time in the MLP fandom when it comes to humanized art of the ponies. "OMG Why'd you make the fashion designer white she's BLACK OMG!" (Ironically, this character's coat color IS white.) Or "ARGH! The shy one is Middle Eastern you suck! *raegraegraeg over stupid s**t*" (Note: no pony's humanized form's realistic skin color or ethnicity is canon, as Hasbro deliberately avoided the issue by Doug-ifying the human-high-school-spinoff movies.)

I think people just forget that there are more shades of color than black and white and brown. There are a lot of in-between colors there.
Funny thing; you never see the Asians (the Oriental-type, not Middle-East) complain or have it complained that, say, Mulan was too white. Also funny, most of the people doing the bitching tend to be white, themselves.

EDIT: I kinda danced around the original question. xD My bad! I have no issue with artists picking one skin color over another, as it's their freedom of expression to do so. After all, there's a couple of What-If-Disney-Princesses-were-X-Ethnicity pictures floating around.

[apiyo]

My opinion is different for your two examples. In the case of established characters why is it necessary to make them lighter. Especially in the cases were the artists "guilty" of whitewashing hail from a culture that prizes light-skin it is very troubling that they feel the need to do that. Yes that would be met with suspicion because peoples' mind is going to think "what are you trying to imply." Also it's very jarring for the sake of continuity because I'm that type of person. It weirds me out when manga/anime characters' skin or hair colors change at random for no reason (Fuu's hair color in Magic Knight's Rayearth. Is it really so hard to draw dark skin? really? In the case of your 2nd example, it's open season to a fair degree. There is no crime to make a dark or light character.

Though all this is pointless because if non of us like an artist's representation we can all shut up and draw whatever we want. Don't like the skin colors represented? Be a (wo)man of action and draw it yourself or fume in silence.

[Lychee Fruit]

No matter what color you use, somebody will hate it, and they'll pull the race card to back it up. Ironically, they're the ones being racist, by saying that only their skin color is "right". Too dark, too light, not a real skin color at all. It's a waste of time to deal with people who complain about how you paint, because they won't respect you even if you do cave to their orders, and if you try to reason with them and explain your choice, they'll whip out a posse of uninformed social justice warriors to destroy your reputation. The only thing to do is ignore them and wait for them to move on to the next target (probably an actual person with the "wrong" skin color).

[Annie Felis]

If somebody is creating a character from Uganda and gives her fair skin and blonde hair, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody decides to draw Korra and make her look white, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody thinks that characters from most anime are all white and draws them all as white, that's stupid and they are a complete dumbass for thinking that japanese artists would draw nothing but white people and they should totally be called out on it.

However if somebody draws a black Twilight Sparkle versus a white Twilight Sparkle...so what? Things like humanized ponies can be any race and it's not whitewashing if somebody wants to draw a white Rarity instead of an arab one wearing a hijab. People tend to draw their own race too, and they shouldn't be bullied for drawing what they want. It's just some SJWs are little shits who want to turn everything into a big debate on racism. That's not saying that it isn't a huge problem and there is not a big representation of POCs, that's just saying that some immature people think that being an a*****e will fix the problem instead of intelligently talking it out.

[wine mom]

Annie Felis

If somebody is creating a character from Uganda and gives her fair skin and blonde hair, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody decides to draw Korra and make her look white, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody thinks that characters from most anime are all white and draws them all as white, that's stupid and they are a complete dumbass for thinking that japanese artists would draw nothing but white people and they should totally be called out on it.

However if somebody draws a black Twilight Sparkle versus a white Twilight Sparkle...so what? Things like humanized ponies can be any race and it's not whitewashing if somebody wants to draw a white Rarity instead of an arab one wearing a hijab. People tend to draw their own race too, and they shouldn't be bullied for drawing what they want. It's just some SJWs are little shits who want to turn everything into a big debate on racism. That's not saying that it isn't a huge problem and there is not a big representation of POCs, that's just saying that some immature people think that being an a*****e will fix the problem instead of intelligently talking it out.

I agree with this 100%. I feel like some of the contributing problems is that I don't think a lot of white people understand how over represented they are and don't even notice. They lack the understanding of what seeing a poc character represents. And sure, people can do what they want, but that doesn't mean they're not being shitty and ignorant.

Also, I think another problem is that since "white" is the default, a lot of people don't know how to draw any other race. I've seen SO many cartoons and comics where they just threw in black characters for diversity but they're features are exactly the same as the white people and it just looks weird. That didn't really bother me until I was older though. What did always bother me was the lack of poc representation.

[EternalFlame]

I've only had one person ever criticize my comic for racial reasons.

Apparently you can't make comics these days, even fantasy ones, without having a mixed race main cast.

Which, is ironic, because with an elf, a dragon, and a lizardman, I think I have more races than most comics.

[4artMule]

Annie Felis

If somebody is creating a character from Uganda and gives her fair skin and blonde hair, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody decides to draw Korra and make her look white, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody thinks that characters from most anime are all white and draws them all as white, that's stupid and they are a complete dumbass for thinking that japanese artists would draw nothing but white people and they should totally be called out on it.

However if somebody draws a black Twilight Sparkle versus a white Twilight Sparkle...so what? Things like humanized ponies can be any race and it's not whitewashing if somebody wants to draw a white Rarity instead of an arab one wearing a hijab. People tend to draw their own race too, and they shouldn't be bullied for drawing what they want. It's just some SJWs are little shits who want to turn everything into a big debate on racism. That's not saying that it isn't a huge problem and there is not a big representation of POCs, that's just saying that some immature people think that being an a*****e will fix the problem instead of intelligently talking it out.

what is wrong with speculating about what tiana would look like white or jasmine would look like black or Ariel Asian?


I feel like the only people who get upset about those things are sjw's or people made fun of in www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction

And what they say is usually more racist than what they are complaining about. Hence the existence of www.reddit.com/r/stormfrontORsjw


For those who don't know stormfront is a group that believes in white supremacy.

[SamhainStar]

Its funny that Korra was mentioned, I remember one tumblr post where they accused the animators of making her too white and the creator actually responded with a proverbial ton of bricks, it was beautiful.

I also saw David Gaider (I think it was, while back now) defend someone (an amateur artist) who was accused of white washing a new companion, Vivenne for Dragon Age.

I hate a good 80% of Reddit, but when it comes to social justice warriors they've got a point. It is becoming hipster to point the finger at anyone not seen to be extra progressive especially on racial lines, the problem being that its coming from people who just want to be superior over others not from improving life for greater good*. I guarantee these people are sitting comfortably in upper class near all white neighborhoods. Context is important.

For example, there is still way too much default = white. the great panty sniff calls it right and its great that we are getting heroes like Korra e.t.c, there is definitely much room for improvement. Legitimate white washing would be the The Last Avatar movie. The arguments about it being fantasy and their races not specified because its a made up world are very, very weak.

But what good is it to crucify young artists who don't have full control of making art. As Navate points out, painting skin is not all the same. Should you try and expand your skills by doing other ethnicity? Yes, but only when you're ready. They are your hands after all.

The average artist does not affect society/culture, though I think its a little different for people who do, like I think people making top tier video games and other entertainment who have a following have a responsibility to provide products fairly. By which I mean making only white hero dudes and cardboard cut out girls with few clothes and no personality en masse is bad for our society and has a negative effect on culture.

* Which is pretty much guaranteed what OP saw. Someone just wanted to go on a power trip to feel good about themselves, at the expense of someone else and "social justice" was just their chosen avenue to get it.

[4artMule]

SamhainStar

Its funny that Korra was mentioned, I remember one tumblr post where they accused the animators of making her too white and the creator actually responded with a proverbial ton of bricks, it was beautiful.

I also saw David Gaider (I think it was, while back now) defend someone (an amateur artist) who was accused of white washing a new companion, Vivenne for Dragon Age.

I hate a good 80% of Reddit, but when it comes to social justice warriors they've got a point. It is becoming hipster to point the finger at anyone not seen to be extra progressive especially on racial lines, the problem being that its coming from people who just want to be superior over others not from improving life for greater good*. I guarantee these people are sitting comfortably in upper class near all white neighborhoods. Context is important.

For example, there is still way too much default = white. the great panty sniff calls it right and its great that we are getting heroes like Korra e.t.c, there is definitely much room for improvement. Legitimate white washing would be the The Last Avatar movie. The arguments about it being fantasy and their races not specified because its a made up world are very, very weak.

But what good is it to crucify young artists who don't have full control of making art. As Navate points out, painting skin is not all the same. Should you try and expand your skills by doing other ethnicity? Yes, but only when you're ready. They are your hands after all.

The average artist does not affect society/culture, though I think its a little different for people who do, like I think people making top tier video games and other entertainment who have a following have a responsibility to provide products fairly. By which I mean making only white hero dudes and cardboard cut out girls with few clothes and no personality en masse is bad for our society and has a negative effect on culture.

* Which is pretty much guaranteed what OP saw. Someone just wanted to go on a power trip to feel good about themselves, at the expense of someone else and "social justice" was just their chosen avenue to get it.

why do you hate reddit?


Btw you do know sjw is a derogatory term used to mock fanatics? I wasn't sure by the way you talked.



I too saw that post. And I read the replies to it- people saying it didn't matter that the skin tones were the same, all of them were still too light. Apparently the darker the better, I kid you not rolleyes


I haven't seen the movie but I haven't heard one person say a single good thing about it. Not one person. It pissed a lot of people of. So of course I really want to watch it now, lol.


There was a post not that long ago where people switched up the Disney princesses. Made Snow White Hispanic, belle black, Ariel Asian, or something like that. The outfits were changed to match the culture. I thought it was really creative and beautiful. However people were complaining that it was somehow racist to speculate what they would look like in a different culture as the predominant race in that culture. Which is silly.

[4artMule]

the great panty sniff

Annie Felis

If somebody is creating a character from Uganda and gives her fair skin and blonde hair, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody decides to draw Korra and make her look white, that's stupid and they should be called out on it.

If somebody thinks that characters from most anime are all white and draws them all as white, that's stupid and they are a complete dumbass for thinking that japanese artists would draw nothing but white people and they should totally be called out on it.

However if somebody draws a black Twilight Sparkle versus a white Twilight Sparkle...so what? Things like humanized ponies can be any race and it's not whitewashing if somebody wants to draw a white Rarity instead of an arab one wearing a hijab. People tend to draw their own race too, and they shouldn't be bullied for drawing what they want. It's just some SJWs are little shits who want to turn everything into a big debate on racism. That's not saying that it isn't a huge problem and there is not a big representation of POCs, that's just saying that some immature people think that being an a*****e will fix the problem instead of intelligently talking it out.

I agree with this 100%. I feel like some of the contributing problems is that I don't think a lot of white people understand how over represented they are and don't even notice. They lack the understanding of what seeing a poc character represents. And sure, people can do what they want, but that doesn't mean they're not being shitty and ignorant.

Also, I think another problem is that since "white" is the default, a lot of people don't know how to draw any other race. I've seen SO many cartoons and comics where they just threw in black characters for diversity but they're features are exactly the same as the white people and it just looks weird. That didn't really bother me until I was older though. What did always bother me was the lack of poc representation.

you aren't advocating throwing in token black or Indian people in movies like "Brave" where there would be no pocs, are you?

[4artMule]

on phone so sorry for any mistakes. I find no problem with what most people use as examples as white washing in illustration. It comes down to the author's intent. Do they believe lighter skinned people are inferior? If not and it is just speculation or a mistake than there should be no problem. Even if a person draws a black character with blue eyes or white skin because they think that on that particular character it would look prettier, I have no problem with it. After all I don't mind people drawing white characters black or Indian or Native American or what have you, because they believe a white character would look more striking if she was a different race.


If course if they are purposefully trying to influence others it is different. Or if there were some major famous artist that worked mostly with teenagers and kids and they drew a black character white, without changing any other characters races... In that case I would consider then offensive (children can be influenced to think they are less pretty over something like that). thankfully such an artist doesn't really exist. Maybe in the comic book world?


Photography for magazines is different, and I won't get into that. However I personally would love to buy a magazine about fashion and make up that had I photoshopped women.

A person using their art for racist means or believing that lighter skinned people are prettier and using their art to portray that is offensive to me. So real whitewashing is offensive. I don't think people know what whitewashing really means though.

[SamhainStar]

A day does not go by without racist or sexist inflammatory bs on Reddit. A ton of other people too but the percentage of people agreeing to it is way, way too high. Sure, you can avoid it for the most part but you can be reading say, a thread on Netflix vs Verizon and get caught up in conversations like "Netflix needs porn but then I couldn't hide my history from my wife hurr hurr".

I go there because Gawker complained about them every week, but still got half of their content from there. And pet pictures, at least even neckbeards love their pets. Also memes, because when they're not making jokes at other peoples expense they can be pretty funny.

Yes, social justice warrior is derogatory - Reddit asshats will deliberately interpret the word "feminist" to mean crazy, bitter women who complain about nothing to derail an entire movement that encompasses a lot of legitimate complaint but social justice warriors should not be a thing. Doing the right thing (pursuing good causes, like rape awareness and freedom of sexuality) should not need its own label, but it is an appropriate collection of people who again, want to be seen to be looking better than others. (Note that I'm not saying that tumblr awareness of problems is not unnecessary, or wholly stupid as Reddit suggests. Only that intent and being informed matters)

Its kind of like competitive motherhood and the Mother Mary Complex, women will put down other mothers or make a focused effort to be seen to be the most protective, the most kind, the most wise, the most sacrificial like constant posts and pictures on facebook instead of spending time actually raising their children. They're looking for a hit of praise, acknowledgement and agreement and are ready to put down others to get it.

In the case of racism, its important that we don't shy away from awkward topics but in the case of someone using it as a device to improve their own self image it can be bad to make problems where none exist.

Have you seen both series? That would definitely be a better investment of time smile

I find this interesting:

Quote:

There was a post not that long ago where people switched up the Disney princesses. Made Snow White Hispanic, belle black, Ariel Asian, or something like that. The outfits were changed to match the culture. I thought it was really creative and beautiful. However people were complaining that it was somehow racist to speculate what they would look like in a different culture as the predominant race in that culture. Which is silly.

and

Quote:

It comes down to the author's intent

I mostly agree with this - in the example you gave me I think its important. I havnt seen it but you can guess where the artist is going with it - Disney everything is really in right now both on Tumblr and DA. We've had zombie disney princess, disney princes without beards, alternate outfits, gender bent, it only makes sense that alternate race is eventually going to be leveraged in the same way. After all its applied evenly, yes? Not just about making Tiana white.

On the other hand its definitely possible to be racist without meaning to. It would be white washing to consistently draw characters of PoC white and while a single artist doing it, especially one who is not popular does not really amount to much I could see how a collection of people doing it would become a micro aggressive act.

In the real world an example of non deliberate racism would be race blindness. A lot of people claim to be this and I think that's why a lot of people don't understand how the case of Trayvon Martin was racist. To understand it you need knowledge of context and be willing to learn and not just look at things on the surface. I will leave it at that because its lengthy, unless you want to discuss it ^^ I think he's done a lot to harm his own image since, but there were a lot of people who probably consider themselves allies who didn't understand.

I know you said to someone else you didn't want to get into magazine/fashion industry, its not something I know a lot about but it made me smile. Since her career started I think I've seen poor Beyonce just about every shade possible out there. Well saying that, I think she has been spared John Boehner Orange, so she's got that going for her.

[4artMule]

SamhainStar

A day does not go by without racist or sexist inflammatory bs on Reddit. A ton of other people too but the percentage of people agreeing to it is way, way too high. Sure, you can avoid it for the most part but you can be reading say, a thread on Netflix vs Verizon and get caught up in conversations like "Netflix needs porn but then I couldn't hide my history from my wife hurr hurr".

I go there because Gawker complained about them every week, but still got half of their content from there. And pet pictures, at least even neckbeards love their pets. Also memes, because when they're not making jokes at other peoples expense they can be pretty funny.

Yes, social justice warrior is derogatory - Reddit asshats will deliberately interpret the word "feminist" to mean crazy, bitter women who complain about nothing to derail an entire movement that encompasses a lot of legitimate complaint but social justice warriors should not be a thing. Doing the right thing (pursuing good causes, like rape awareness and freedom of sexuality) should not need its own label, but it is an appropriate collection of people who again, want to be seen to be looking better than others. (Note that I'm not saying that tumblr awareness of problems is not unnecessary, or wholly stupid as Reddit suggests. Only that intent and being informed matters)

Its kind of like competitive motherhood and the Mother Mary Complex, women will put down other mothers or make a focused effort to be seen to be the most protective, the most kind, the most wise, the most sacrificial like constant posts and pictures on facebook instead of spending time actually raising their children. They're looking for a hit of praise, acknowledgement and agreement and are ready to put down others to get it.

In the case of racism, its important that we don't shy away from awkward topics but in the case of someone using it as a device to improve their own self image it can be bad to make problems where none exist.

Have you seen both series? That would definitely be a better investment of time smile

I find this interesting:

Quote:

There was a post not that long ago where people switched up the Disney princesses. Made Snow White Hispanic, belle black, Ariel Asian, or something like that. The outfits were changed to match the culture. I thought it was really creative and beautiful. However people were complaining that it was somehow racist to speculate what they would look like in a different culture as the predominant race in that culture. Which is silly.

and

Quote:

It comes down to the author's intent

I mostly agree with this - in the example you gave me I think its important. I havnt seen it but you can guess where the artist is going with it - Disney everything is really in right now both on Tumblr and DA. We've had zombie disney princess, disney princes without beards, alternate outfits, gender bent, it only makes sense that alternate race is eventually going to be leveraged in the same way. After all its applied evenly, yes? Not just about making Tiana white.

On the other hand its definitely possible to be racist without meaning to. It would be white washing to consistently draw characters of PoC white and while a single artist doing it, especially one who is not popular does not really amount to much I could see how a collection of people doing it would become a micro aggressive act.

In the real world an example of non deliberate racism would be race blindness. A lot of people claim to be this and I think that's why a lot of people don't understand how the case of Trayvon Martin was racist. To understand it you need knowledge of context and be willing to learn and not just look at things on the surface. I will leave it at that because its lengthy, unless you want to discuss it ^^ I think he's done a lot to harm his own image since, but there were a lot of people who probably consider themselves allies who didn't understand.

I know you said to someone else you didn't want to get into magazine/fashion industry, its not something I know a lot about but it made me smile. Since her career started I think I've seen poor Beyonce just about every shade possible out there. Well saying that, I think she has been spared John Boehner Orange, so she's got that going for her.

yes, the fashion industry is pretty ******** up, from the bits and pieces I've heard. Either that or all the statistics on it are grossly wrong.



As a person who goes to reddit to deal with her childhood abuse, what you wrote was kind of incredibly rude. Everyone can go on reddit- free speach and all that. Download reddit suite and look at how many Downvotes those comments you dislike have. It's a great site that I mostly go on for, like I said, dealing with my abuse. But also for amazing subreddits like www.reddit.com/r/abandonedporn


I also think you are being unfair- look at the comments on buzzfeed, youtube videos, Gaia, or news articles. They have a far higher ratio of bullshit than reddit.

And I think most people who are informed about what political movements are doing are angry with the sexism inherit in most feminism organizations now. Most of reddit, male and female, considers themselves feminist or egalitarian though.

Anyways I'm not here to talk about them, but about art (god typing on my phone is awkward).


I agree a person can have racist actions without being aware of it. I don't think attacking an ignorant person is the answer.

[SamhainStar]

Quote:

As a person who goes to reddit to deal with her childhood abuse, what you wrote was kind of incredibly rude

That's why I said 80% - if it wasn't worth going on there I wouldn't go at all. (You might find that OTT, as you will)

Raised by Narcissists is extremely popular, for example and really well moderated.

That doesn't excuse the huge amount of BS they have going on ala advice animals and red pill. It took them too long to get rid of creep shots, which becomes more than a freedom of speech issue. It was however very good at publicizing information over Edward Snowden and net neutrality, a good way to inform a lot of people.

Quote:

I agree a person can have racist actions without being aware of it. I don't think attacking an ignorant person is the answer

Probably not, though I empathize with people who are probably tired of hearing their frustrations fall on deaf ears. Certainly yelling at a kid who is just doing a drawing is not going to solve the world's problem with race lol