Humans aren't the only artists?

[God-the-almighty]

On AOL I came across an article about some 40,000 year + old cave art that was found in Spain. Itt's considered the oldest art ever found. The jury isn't completely out but they said it appears to have been made by Neanderthals. This is the first evidence of art made by that species. Modern humans who came to Europe and Asia did pick up some Neanderthal genes on their way out of Africa but there's no evidence that these Neanderthals had a gene flow from us to them.

What I'm wondering is what are your thoughts on this? Have you ever thought about other Hominid species and how close they are to us? Do you consider art only a human invention? What is it that makes us artists? My thought was that we understood symbols. I assumed that we had an extra element that made us less literal and fixed in the moment than other hominids and animals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/08/worlds-oldest-work-of-art_n_1263822.html?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl7|sec1_lnk2&pLid=134321

[Albino Sea Monkey]

Very interesting video. I love learning about other hominids, even if it isn't art-related.

From what I understand about brain size, I feel like homo sapiens are simply better equipped to make higher forms of art; the dexterity, the visual understanding, etc, and that's the only reason we have the kind of art we do. I don't think sapiens are the only species that understand symbols. In fact, I'm almost 100% sure not even hominids are the only group that understand symbols. Ever heard of Alex the African Grey parrot? He was an extremely smart bird, and could understand a lot of symbols and was able to use reasoning to solve problems. Supposedly he had the intelligence of a five year old human, and the emotions of a two year old.

I don't think Alex was taught these things much differently than a human would teach their own child, albeit he most likely learned a little slower. Maybe if Alex had lived longer, and somehow grew hands, he could have painted his ideas? He could have learned symbolism as a child would, he could have learned motor skills as a child would.

Obviously there's a limit to how much can information can be shoved into a birds brain. He eventually would begin forgetting old ideas when he learned something new because he didn't have any more room in his brain. But I bet he could have been taught how to draw in the same way you would teach a five year old to draw. Yet, in the wild, he never would have learned any of the stuff he did... so then... art is a human invention? He never would have been pushed to learn if it weren't for humans?

I feel like I'm rambling and that I'm not really staying on subject. I can't remember where I was going with my Alex idea... bah!

[God-the-almighty]

Albino Sea Monkey

Very interesting video. I love learning about other hominids, even if it isn't art-related.

From what I understand about brain size, I feel like homo sapiens are simply better equipped to make higher forms of art; the dexterity, the visual understanding, etc, and that's the only reason we have the kind of art we do. I don't think sapiens are the only species that understand symbols. In fact, I'm almost 100% sure not even hominids are the only group that understand symbols. Ever heard of Alex the African Grey parrot? He was an extremely smart bird, and could understand a lot of symbols and was able to use reasoning to solve problems. Supposedly he had the intelligence of a five year old human, and the emotions of a two year old.

I don't think Alex was taught these things much differently than a human would teach their own child, albeit he most likely learned a little slower. Maybe if Alex had lived longer, and somehow grew hands, he could have painted his ideas? He could have learned symbolism as a child would, he could have learned motor skills as a child would.

Obviously there's a limit to how much can information can be shoved into a birds brain. He eventually would begin forgetting old ideas when he learned something new because he didn't have any more room in his brain. But I bet he could have been taught how to draw in the same way you would teach a five year old to draw. Yet, in the wild, he never would have learned any of the stuff he did... so then... art is a human invention? He never would have been pushed to learn if it weren't for humans?

I feel like I'm rambling and that I'm not really staying on subject. I can't remember where I was going with my Alex idea... bah!

Neanderthals had bigger brains than Homo Sapiens do. I don't think the difference was brain size. There's very little evidence that other hominids would do things like bury the dead or improve their tools like Homo Sapiens does. As far as brain size for a smaller critter like a bird goes, it's the size of the brain compared to the body that matters more than brain size. Bird like parrots and crows need to be able to communicate on more than an instinctual level, that's likely the factor that would encourage intelligence and even tool using behavior. I came across an article about a study that found that crows can teach each other about the faces of people that did things to them. This information was passed on over generations. I think art isn't just dependent on intelligence. Birds may be smart enough to think and even speak to each other but I don't think they can do art.

It's an interesting thought about how we came to be able to draw in the first place.

[Shanna66]

wow thats so amazing. i love learning about the other old human species.

[Aureilias]

Some of those cave paintings were pretty spectacular. My teacher explained to me a lot of cave paintings are in very very deep caves so cavemen would of had to carry all their equipment down these deep caves with just a torch to see and then would paint by the flickering torches or lamps.


To be honest I don't see the surprise that a close human gene relative could make art but perhaps I'm not fully aware of how un-advanced the Neanderthals were.

There are gimick animals like Congo the monkey or dogs/elephant/pigs that create 'art' but I think it's much the same thing as when a 2-year old 'progidy' is given a paintbrush, splatters some paint on a canvas and suddenly it's considered art.

Talking about birds though, Has anyone seen the nests/ wooing platforms/bowers of the Bowerbird? Quite a few of theme seems to favour colour pallets to decorate their nests.

Bowerbird Nests
Pretty blue one
National Geographic gallery of them.

Sorry for getting off topic @___@

[Dundeleedum]

To my knowledge Neanderthal are human as well no?

[God-the-almighty]

Aureilias

Some of those cave paintings were pretty spectacular. My teacher explained to me a lot of cave paintings are in very very deep caves so cavemen would of had to carry all their equipment down these deep caves with just a torch to see and then would paint by the flickering torches or lamps.


To be honest I don't see the surprise that a close human gene relative could make art but perhaps I'm not fully aware of how un-advanced the Neanderthals were.

There are gimick animals like Congo the monkey or dogs/elephant/pigs that create 'art' but I think it's much the same thing as when a 2-year old 'progidy' is given a paintbrush, splatters some paint on a canvas and suddenly it's considered art.

Talking about birds though, Has anyone seen the nests/ wooing platforms/bowers of the Bowerbird? Quite a few of theme seems to favour colour pallets to decorate their nests.

Bowerbird Nests
Pretty blue one
National Geographic gallery of them.

Sorry for getting off topic @___@

I wouldn't say Neanderthals were less intelligent than humans, it was more they were less adaptable. In the end that's what killed them. To some degree they do live on in us. Europeans and Asians have up to 2% of their genes from Neanderthals. Also at one point in time we almost died out too, that's why every human is so closely related to every other human. We had a genetic bottleneck about 100,000 years ago. I have heard of those types of nests but a great deal of the behavior is controlled by instinct rather than rational thought.

[God-the-almighty]

Dundeleedum

To my knowledge Neanderthal are human as well no?

They are a distinct hominid species. There was limited interbreeding in the group of Homo Sapiens who left Africa but only up to 2% of their genes remain in human populations. I'd say it's more that they were a related species rather than us.

[God-the-almighty]

Anyone? I thought it'd be interesting.

[Skye River]

I find that quite intruiging. They're probably more like us than we may think.

I think early man used art as a way for them to remember or to promote storytelling to the next generation.

[Dundeleedum]

God-the-almighty

Dundeleedum

To my knowledge Neanderthal are human as well no?

They are a distinct hominid species. There was limited interbreeding in the group of Homo Sapiens who left Africa but only up to 2% of their genes remain in human populations. I'd say it's more that they were a related species rather than us.

Reading the thread title I'd expect some more distinct species like elephants or birds or whatnot. Just slightly disappointed razz

[God-the-almighty]

Dundeleedum

God-the-almighty

Dundeleedum

To my knowledge Neanderthal are human as well no?

They are a distinct hominid species. There was limited interbreeding in the group of Homo Sapiens who left Africa but only up to 2% of their genes remain in human populations. I'd say it's more that they were a related species rather than us.

Reading the thread title I'd expect some more distinct species like elephants or birds or whatnot. Just slightly disappointed razz

I find this sort of thing fascinating though. Not all hominid species are like humans. I'm guessing the neanderthals and another related species were the closest to us. I think that makes them even more interesting than elephants birds or whatnot. Especially because some humans have a few neanderthal genes. Elephants and chimps have been touted to make art but they aren't like us. It's a bit suspect, a lot like those people who talk about young children making masterpieces. One thing I wondered is how do they think, did they think like us, how human are they? The fact at least some of them made art kind of leans in that direction.

[Tenko72]

The thread title disappoints me. I never heard of that cave, so I feel better now. Thanks for posting this. I love learning new things.

Anyway, even if it's driven by instincts, the imitating skills of lyrebirds sounds like it has some art to it to me. They have to mix the sounds up in the right way to get something that sounds good and not like a hot mess.

[x_Silver_Starlight_x]

I don't know, it didn't really surprise me.
I have this majoy inferiority complex; I don't think humans are as great as we make ourselves out to be.
You mentioned that you don't think birds can make art? I think they can. It's not the same as ours, but it fits my definition of art none the less. Certain species of birds build nests, like Aurelius said, and they try to one up the next guy to make it nicer. They try to use it as a message to a lady bird to say "Hey, we could make beautiful babies together." Other birds learn various songs and try to create a single, beautiful and impressive song, again to send the message that he's a good mate. I don't think it's purely instinct (though clearly it is to some extent), since the nests change from one bird to the next. They have personal touches. I don't doubt that they could learn to paint, since some are capable of using tools.
Elephants have also been taught to paint. While this certainly isn't a natural occurrence, it's possible.
Anywhoosles, I'd be more interested if it were a monkey. Neanderthals are extremely close to human beings, and sometimes considered a subspecies.

[God-the-almighty]

x_Silver_Starlight_x

I don't know, it didn't really surprise me.
I have this majoy inferiority complex; I don't think humans are as great as we make ourselves out to be.
You mentioned that you don't think birds can make art? I think they can. It's not the same as ours, but it fits my definition of art none the less. Certain species of birds build nests, like Aurelius said, and they try to one up the next guy to make it nicer. They try to use it as a message to a lady bird to say "Hey, we could make beautiful babies together." Other birds learn various songs and try to create a single, beautiful and impressive song, again to send the message that he's a good mate. I don't think it's purely instinct (though clearly it is to some extent), since the nests change from one bird to the next. They have personal touches. I don't doubt that they could learn to paint, since some are capable of using tools.
Elephants have also been taught to paint. While this certainly isn't a natural occurrence, it's possible.
Anywhoosles, I'd be more interested if it were a monkey. Neanderthals are extremely close to human beings, and sometimes considered a subspecies.

It would be considered a sub species only if they shared more genes with humans. Think of the quaga, that is a subspecies of zebras. They are working on breeding them again from zebras because the genes reside in the same species. You can't do that with neanderthals. The source population of Homo Sapiens doesn't share genes with them, Europeans and Asians do because there was limited interbreeding but only about 2% of those genes survive. There were several species of hominids We are one and Neanderthals were another. I guess what makes them so interesting is how close they were to us and the fact they were still around so recently. As for the birds I agree somewhat they do learn and develop their craft but I think the element of symbolism is missing. I think that's why it's not really art.