Dissing tracing as a beginner practice. (quick rant, night)

[TapSkill]

Tracing is not bad. I don't do it, and I never really wanted to, but it is acceptable if you need to do it. If you are a beginner, you should be allowed to trace, if you feel the need to.

I think of 'eyeballing' as the same thing as tracing in the sense that you are copying something. When you draw something "from life", you are copying something. Tracing is no worse except that it takes less thought.

I am certain I will get flamed for speaking my opinion. I will get a bunch of forum trolls dissing my art or whatever and claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about. I know this will happen and I still post because I want to voice the opinion of a sane person. Tracing and "from life" are both copying.

Now, onto the idea that copying is theft. This is circumstantial. If you copy to learn, you are not commiting a crime. You are not stealing someone's work. However, if you post your tracing and ask for critique, you are blatantly stealing someone's design by claiming it as your own. Also, if you traced something, having someone critique it will be a waste of time for both parties.

Good night, everyone in my timezone.

[Annie Felis]

Yes it is, and posting a new thread is not going to convince us that your opinion is right. Even opinions can be wrong.

You still do not know the difference between eyeballing, tracing and life drawing. Go back to the other thread and pay attention to the links Kaiser-chan posted, because they're full of examples of what life drawing is.

And I am not a troll for telling you that you are wrong about facts. I'm simply somebody who is telling you that you are wrong, and telling you where you can learn the right way.

[MintySin]

I kind of agree. There's some difference between drawing a still life and drawing that same still life from a photo though. They're both good practice, but being able to flatten the shapes yourself is a really good thing to learn. As for straight up tracing, so long as it's used to practice sure why not. BUT never, NEVER should you trace or eyeball some else's art work. You also shouldn't present these studies (eye balling, tracing, whatever) as art work, they're not. Still lives and pictures drawn using a reference CAN be art work though.

It's late, excuse me if I re-stated abunch of what you said OP.

[Ms Spook]

Why are you making a thread? People are just going to copy and paste all of their responses into this thread.

Disagreeing, and proving you wrong, does not make someone a troll.

Tracing to learn is a s**t way to do things. Think about it. When you trace...are you really thinking about all of the dimensions of an object? Are you learning how to think of the object as a 3d model? No.

Now. Please. Show me one professional artist, you aren't a professional, who says that tracing is a great way to learn.

[Kaiser-chan]

I've given two responses on the matter that are pretty long-winded. I don't see a reason to copy either in-depth here, but I do stand by what I said and I think if you want to debate a matter instead of cutting and running like a child or a troll, you should actually bother to read what people are telling you.

Kaiser-chan

If you're not copying something that's accurate, you will internalize the wrong information. When you copy a stylized work, you're copying the things that artist chose to emphasize or disregard - but those things might not always work or hold true - even if the original artist was amazing and perfect. If you want to shift things around after you've copied them from a stylized work, you'll be at a disadvantage for how to do so, because the stylized work has areas that have been modified.

from here.

Kaiser-chan

Because when I say that doing drawings from life, photo studies, master studies, and copying anatomy diagrams are all things that I'm pretty sure help an artist, I can back that up. (all links have nsfw content. Nudity) Look at how fast this man improved, look at what he was doing. Look at how good this guy is, look at his lifedrawing. Another guy. Another.

Find me someone like that, only with tracing anime instead of drawing from life. If they exist, you can find them. Post yourself, if you learned that way. Put up or shut up, guys, if you want anyone here to talk to you like an actual adult instead of a willful child stomping their feet and saying it's cuz you said so. For every example up there, I can think of dozens of other artists who aren't as good, but do the same stuff. Those are my personal favorites, nothing more. If there was one person who was helped that much by tracing, I'd have seen it by now. And I haven't.

from here.

If you want to argue, don't make a new thread. Just do what I said in the second one. Prove me wrong. Find someone who became a great artist by tracing or eyeballing. If it's possible, you should have examples. You could use yourself as an example, if you're a great artist. If you don't, then I'm pretty sure you don't have an argument, just a lot of hot air.

And don't bother with more of that "master studies/drawing from life are no different." Go back to the first post, don't pass go, don't collect 200.

[God-the-almighty]

You aren't going to get a lot of agreement here.

[ninitan]

TapSkill

When you draw something "from life", you are copying something.

No you're not. You're translating a 3D element onto to a 2D surface and learning several absolutely vital things in the process. When you trace, you learn jack s**t because you are not thinking about what you're doing, you're not taking measurements, you're rendering values, you're not observing and you're not translating. You're literally just going over someone else's lines.

Tracing teaches you as much about drawing as making instant ramen teaches you about cooking.

[Albino Sea Monkey]

I can't even fathom your stupidity. I'm sorry, but either you're a troll, or you have something seriously wrong with your head.

Please, for the sake of the people here who don't know any better and are trying to improve upon their art: Stop giving them the most horribly wrong and incorrect information. Please stop advocating tracing, and in turn stealing, art.

There are dozens of users on here that are living proof that life drawing works, and that tracing doesn't.

[Errol McGillivray]

ninitan

Tracing teaches you as much about drawing as making instant ramen teaches you about cooking.

Preach, baby!

[Playboy Karasu Uchiha]

No, both eyeballing and tracing as a tool is bad. It doesn't help you to truly understand the basics, all you do is copy and possibly learn the mistakes the original artist has made.

Not only are you not really learning how to draw the anatomy, people, animals, perspective, composition, etc....but actually picking up bad habits that might make it hard to learn and get rid of later on.

Sure when you are starting out, there will be a lot of problems but with practice, you will see improvements and notice things more. Like have a better understanding of the arms, etc....the proportions.

Memorizing just by copying isn't really helping you to learn as you don't understand the basics when tracing.

What better strokes? Nicer and smoother lines, circles, etc....practice drawing them over and over. I knew people who traced for a long time and when they stopped, they had a hard time drawing nice lines. You don't have that guide anymore. I know people that trace and use traced bases mostly and the art doesn't look that good. The anatomy is off, they don't know how to make clothes realistically by creating folds and wrinkles, etc...instead it looks painted on. If they color, it is often flat, they don't shade or highlight anything most of the time, etc....Why? Because they hadn't learned any of that.

You get what we're saying? We aren't trolling, but trying to help people to avoid bad habits that could later do a lot of harm. Even if you don't post it online, it's still not good.

As from life, they aren't just copying it, but they understand things and brake it down. Take the face for example. They know where the eyes, ears, nose and mouth placements go. They aren't just blindly drawing, but learning where they should go.

And yes, it is a theft and no you aren't learning anything. Almost everyone one here-beginners, students, professionals, hobbyist, etc...can and will tell you that. Doesn't make a difference if you post it or not as the laws don't change, you just probably won't get in trouble if the artist doesn't know and you aren't posting it to claim it as your own.

For example, if you burn a CD or DVD to give a copy for a friend, chances are you won't get into trouble as you probably won't get caught but unless given permission, it isn't legal technically, even if you don't upload it or sell the copies you made. Same with copying someone's work as it is illegally reproducing someone's work.

[A River in Egypt]

Ah, yes, just like copying someone's story is a great way to learn to write.

[ninitan]

Errol McGillivray

ninitan

Tracing teaches you as much about drawing as making instant ramen teaches you about cooking.

Preach, baby!

Albino Sea Monkey

He's not a troll, he did something similar in CC a few days ago as well. Linked me to his art as "evidence that life drawing is not necessary" and everything.

[Albino Sea Monkey]

ninitan

He's not a troll, he did something similar in CC a few days ago as well. Linked me to his art as "evidence that life drawing is not necessary" and everything.

Aw, well then he must have been dropped on his head a few too many times.
Shame.

[Ms Spook]

ninitan

Tracing teaches you as much about drawing as making instant ramen teaches you about cooking.

This comparison is quite....



Good job.

[Seirya]

TapSkill

Considering the volumes of text people have posted about why life drawing is better...I can't fathom why you promote a learning tool which is clearly inferior.

Prove why tracing is not a worse way to learn. Put your money where your mouth is, since you can't seem to post anyone else's work that's been improved through tracing.

This is the gauntlet at your feet: pidgeons in a week. I propose that I could learn to draw pidgeons (universal pest it is) better through life drawing than you could through tracing. At the end of that week, we'll see who learnt more about how to draw them by doing the same 'commission' as proposed by the AD. To finish in an hour.

What say you?

And in case you want to accuse me of having any unfair starting advantage, just ask and I'll give you the link to my (amateur, anime) stuff, or even my current timetable.