Critiquing...how to make 'em and take 'em *edited*

[XMegantronX]

Nathaniel Mea

XMegantronX

Nathaniel Mea

XMegantronX

Nathaniel Mea

Personally I have never sugar coated or used the sandwich critique technique. I give the crit as I see it. I comment on what I see, and if I don't see anything good with the image, I will not say anything good.

I've rarely had any issues from people not liking my crits though, the few times I have they've acted the same way to all crits they've got.

And I agree with Fansub, not every picture have something good to say about it.

What people need to realize is that they are not their art. Their art may try to say something, but they are not their art.

The peice is a product, and they are not their product. Hell, best thing a person can do is to learn how to destroy a picture they love. That way they don't get too attached to their art.

well, that's your prerogative. i created this to make a basic outline to give a balanced review of a piece. i know people will do what they want.

and yeah, people do need to view their art as something not personal, but writing a really harsh review may start arguments in which nothing is solved. but then again, that's why i posted the second half about taking critiques.

To be honest though, most of the regs here know how to both give and take crits. Hell most of us have had teachers tear up our art and have professionals tear into our art. We say what we say because that is reality, that is how a critique works in a professional/student setting.

There are no worthless flowering of words or ridiculous fluff used. sure, they can tell you why something works, but they also add why it works and why it works and the rest don't. That is, if they find something that works. I've had many of my images rejected full out by editors or commissioners because the image was wrong or not what they wanted. And believe you me, they will let you know why it is s**t.

Making a guide/guru thread in this forum is a great risk, especially with a subject such as Critique. We are all Students, Serious Hobbyists or even a few Professionals. We KNOW how to give and take it, it is after all part of why we are here in the first place.

lol, i don't mind if i raise controversy. i'm interested in what people think so i can get a better idea of why people spew hateful comments while critiquing to make the artist want to go home and cry or why, when given a critique, artists either put up their fists or ignore. i think i posted the little line about saying something good because i had to in college critiques and even though it was a very small part of the critique, it gave me strive to continue through all the mistakes i still had to deal with.

so should i omit the part about making a nice comment?

I don't really care what you do, it was just a warning.

and to be honest, I've never had anyone hate my crits. As I said in my first post, the only few times I've had, they have been acting the same way with every other crit they've received. I don't have problems with harsh crits myself. I find them refreshingly honest and to the point. If you post on a place like the PP, where posting means you want a crit, then you will have to be able to take them, no matter the flavour. If you only post there to get a**-pats then the PP isn't the place for you.

well, i never said you had to be soft. personally, i like detailed critiques who point out all the flaws they can with my work. i honestly like knowing and i'm at the point where i don't need a praise to keep me going. i can do that on my own. but i felt there are some here younger than i who haven't built that up yet. and i never said pp is for a**-pats. i hate it when people post there only wanting compliments. i ran into one just yesterday, in fact. so i'm not sure where you were going with those comments ><; sorry. the compliment is only a fraction of the crit, so i didn't think people would latch onto it with such force. *makes a note to put that it's optional*

and thanks for the warning anyways, i suppose. and thank you for commenting.

[Nathaniel Mea]

XMegantronX

Nathaniel Mea

XMegantronX

Nathaniel Mea

XMegantronX

Nathaniel Mea

Personally I have never sugar coated or used the sandwich critique technique. I give the crit as I see it. I comment on what I see, and if I don't see anything good with the image, I will not say anything good.

I've rarely had any issues from people not liking my crits though, the few times I have they've acted the same way to all crits they've got.

And I agree with Fansub, not every picture have something good to say about it.

What people need to realize is that they are not their art. Their art may try to say something, but they are not their art.

The peice is a product, and they are not their product. Hell, best thing a person can do is to learn how to destroy a picture they love. That way they don't get too attached to their art.

well, that's your prerogative. i created this to make a basic outline to give a balanced review of a piece. i know people will do what they want.

and yeah, people do need to view their art as something not personal, but writing a really harsh review may start arguments in which nothing is solved. but then again, that's why i posted the second half about taking critiques.

To be honest though, most of the regs here know how to both give and take crits. Hell most of us have had teachers tear up our art and have professionals tear into our art. We say what we say because that is reality, that is how a critique works in a professional/student setting.

There are no worthless flowering of words or ridiculous fluff used. sure, they can tell you why something works, but they also add why it works and why it works and the rest don't. That is, if they find something that works. I've had many of my images rejected full out by editors or commissioners because the image was wrong or not what they wanted. And believe you me, they will let you know why it is s**t.

Making a guide/guru thread in this forum is a great risk, especially with a subject such as Critique. We are all Students, Serious Hobbyists or even a few Professionals. We KNOW how to give and take it, it is after all part of why we are here in the first place.

lol, i don't mind if i raise controversy. i'm interested in what people think so i can get a better idea of why people spew hateful comments while critiquing to make the artist want to go home and cry or why, when given a critique, artists either put up their fists or ignore. i think i posted the little line about saying something good because i had to in college critiques and even though it was a very small part of the critique, it gave me strive to continue through all the mistakes i still had to deal with.

so should i omit the part about making a nice comment?

I don't really care what you do, it was just a warning.

and to be honest, I've never had anyone hate my crits. As I said in my first post, the only few times I've had, they have been acting the same way with every other crit they've received. I don't have problems with harsh crits myself. I find them refreshingly honest and to the point. If you post on a place like the PP, where posting means you want a crit, then you will have to be able to take them, no matter the flavour. If you only post there to get a**-pats then the PP isn't the place for you.

well, i never said you had to be soft. personally, i like detailed critiques who point out all the flaws they can with my work. i honestly like knowing and i'm at the point where i don't need a praise to keep me going. i can do that on my own. but i felt there are some here younger than i who haven't built that up yet. and i never said pp is for a**-pats. i hate it when people post there only wanting compliments. i ran into one just yesterday, in fact. so i'm not sure where you were going with those comments ><; sorry. the compliment is only a fraction of the crit, so i didn't think people would latch onto it with such force. *makes a note to put that it's optional*

and thanks for the warning anyways, i suppose. and thank you for commenting.

I never said that you did. It was a general you.

[Fansub]

XMegantronX

Fansub

XMegantronX

Unless traced or stolen, every picture has something good about it.

Ummm no.

yes. there is something good about it as long as there was an honest effort put into it. might be the concept, original idea, etc. just gotta try

If it looks like s**t, then it doesn't matter how good the idea was or how much effort the person made to draw it. All that matters is the final result.

[Errol McGillivray]

XMegantronX

Errol McGillivray

Quote:

Your critique shouldn't make the artist feel like they should just quit.

If the artist feels that way, it's their problem, not mine. At the same time, you need to consider the artist's level of understanding, level of confidence, and overall sense of purpose. Since the work telegraphs it, there's no excuse for ignoring those things.

don't hold back. never said you shouldn't. just bare in mind that you're there to help them, not make them feel like s**t for trying to draw.

so let me ask, how would you change this layout of critiquing? i would like more comments on how you would change this rather than comments on "i'll just critique how i want" which i assumed i would get anyways XD

My change would be making sure the first sentence is:

Read the goddamn post before you reply to it.

[Tenko72]

XMegantronX

Fansub

XMegantronX

Unless traced or stolen, every picture has something good about it.

Ummm no.

yes. there is something good about it as long as there was an honest effort put into it. might be the concept, original idea, etc. just gotta try

I actually agree with you. I rarely see something original that did everything wrong. Heck, if they actually drew the hands, instead of having them behind backs, in pockets, magically off the page somehow, etc. that's something.

[-2o]

XMegantronX

-2o

The way a critic gives a critique is largely a function of their personality. Whether it's the blunt kind or the nice kind is a matter of tone and framing and as long as the critic is honest, it doesn't really matter. blunt=/=abusive, nice=/=insincere. I say this because every time someone posts this sort of topic, there ends up being an argument over this fact.

At any rate, when a piece is so bad on a basic technical level, all the other stuff about feelings and whatnot become inconsequential. Also, the people who most need this sort of advice are not going to be reading it, so you'll more or less be preaching to the choir.

well, you always have the option to not post a critique if you feel it's so bad the person won't listen to you. and i agree, critiquing can reflect the personality of the critic, so the first impression can be a bad one too, but inserting a small thing you like about the picture doesn't hurt. all i was getting at is some people focus on the bad to the point where the artist feels worthless and that's not the goal. just like it's equally bad to do nothing but praise the artist and call it a critique

There is no 100% reliable way to determine whether or not the person who is receiving critique will respond well,so if you only post to people who have something nice you can say about their work, everyone else gets ignored. That's silly. How about this- a person puts out a blunt critique* (honest, not rude, yadda yadda ding) and the artist has the option to a) react terribly (to which I maintain they would have done that anyway) or b)accept their flaws, challenge what they don't agree with, and generally act like rational human beings.

If you believe that there is a dearth of critiques that contain whatever element you are espousing, feel free to contribute those kind to whatever forums you choose. Just don't think your approach has any universality, because it does not. Critique is not a hard science, and it does not need arbitrary rules based on arbitrary guidelines to be successful at what it seeks to accomplish.

There is no need to create value by bullshitting a virtue a piece doesn't have (And yes, I maintain that a piece doesn't have any intrinsic value because of the artists effort or ideas), nor is their need to ignore people for which their current work holds no value in fear that they will sing a song to end the Earth. As a stupid dipshit kid and the kind that needs critique most of all- reasonable people do not need this level of babying. Unreasonable people will be unreasonable no matter what.

*No one is going to agree that being abusive is beneficial.

[Rachael Aryn]

Art takes courage, blunt and brutal helps you improve.

I'm not going to tell someone to give up drawing, but if that's how they feel about someone being honest, well that's not my problem.

Weeds out the pansies. If you like to draw for fun and you don't want to improve, don't get defensive and pay attention to asspats. But, if someone wants to improve as a career, then the brutal critiques are what pushes you into the ring. If you can't handle them, don't post art.

Critiques aren't meant for smoothing the hair or singing lullabies of encouragement so as not to hurt their delicate little feelings. I give them to help someone improve.

General you by the way. Not you you.

[XMegantronX]

Fansub

If it looks like s**t, then it doesn't matter how good the idea was or how much effort the person made to draw it. All that matters is the final result.

true, it can still be poorly drawn and a critic needs to let them know that the quality is not up to par, but that still does not mean that they didn't put in an honest effort and should be told about what they should keep doing along with what they need to work on more.

Errol McGillivray

noted sir

Tenko72

true, that's what i was trying to get at. guess i just wrote it poorly. i think if you had the balls to draw something you knew you weren't too great at anyways and gave an honest attempt, there's good there and encourage to keep doing that should follow. that way they can practice more and get better experienced.

-2o

never did i say to baby an artist. i feel like everyone is focusing in one one statement in here that saying something that they did well helps to encourage is the same as babying or showering with praises. it does not mean the same thing. babying the artist can be just as destructive to their ability to be an artist as harassing them for drawing poorly, if not more so.

and yeah, people blow up at critics when they get a tough critique. i had one just yesterday getting rude with me and another critic because we stated what she needed to work on. even though i found something i liked about her work, stated it, and wrote things she needed to improve, change, etc, she still got mad. the other critic was more forceful than i, but wasn't rude as she pointed out, in detail, what to fix, how to fix it, why it needs fixed, etc. (this situation inspired me to make this thread) so i get that. and if you're polite and the artist still blows up (like my situation) then screw 'em. you tried and they don't want to hear it. dunno why they were in pp forums, though, but whatever.

and i think there are some needs for guidelines, i just think mine was poorly written. talking to you all made me see where i need to edit, omit, and add information. like i completely forgot to add what a critic should be looking for in a work like proportions, general concept, balance, etc. and i believe most critics already follow a general layout way of critiquing. this wasn't really mean to lecture critics on how to critique, but help those being critiqued understand why the critic says what he/she says.

Ms Spook

alrighty. all those are good points, but irrelevant when i say that you SHOULDN'T baby an artist. read above or back a few posts for further details.

ok guys, don't baby artists. got it. never said you should...like at all in this entire thread. it's bad. the artist should know exactly what's wrong with their art. end of story.

[Cream Puffnut]

Fansub

If it looks like s**t, then it doesn't matter how good the idea was or how much effort the person made to draw it. All that matters is the final result.

I have to agree with this.
Even if the artist drew the hands instead of hiding them behind the subject's back. Really, you're going to praise the artist for not doing something they shouldn't do?
There's no point digging around for good points. A critique is a critique. If there's something you think is good about it, say so, but if you find yourself needing to search for one you might as well not.

[XMegantronX]

Cream Puffnut

Fansub

If it looks like s**t, then it doesn't matter how good the idea was or how much effort the person made to draw it. All that matters is the final result.

I have to agree with this.
Even if the artist drew the hands instead of hiding them behind the subject's back. Really, you're going to praise the artist for not doing something they shouldn't do?
There's no point digging around for good points. A critique is a critique. If there's something you think is good about it, say so, but if you find yourself needing to search for one you might as well not.

alrighty

[-2o]

You do not need to say "baby an artist" to convey just that idea. To assert that there must be something that you can be complimenting (if you set your standards really really low) is to treat the artist with kid gloves and act as if they cannot function without a little sugar in their cheerios. Babying is not just in how you say your critique, but what you choose to add or subtract. Giving them compliments for sillyness like "effort" and "hardwork" is babying, plain and simple. And also condescending as all hell.

An artist with an ego fragile enough to fall apart at blunt critique will have probably fallen apart anyway and interpreted any negativity as an attack. So you don't need to throw things in there for the abstract and frankly ridiculous goal of "not making the artist want to quit art" Most of the time that's said as a bid for attention and sympathy anyway, but even if it weren't, the responsibility for that reaction does not lie on shared shoulders- it is all on the person receiving the critique.

If you know that you cannot take blunt criticism, the onus is on you to avoid it. It is not on everyone else to tip toe around everyone in the hopes that they don't accidentally crush your ego.

There really does not need to be a guide, as the only people who would even pay attention to such a thing are people already critiquing. Additionally, there is no way to actually make this guide of yours without inserting all of your subjective values into the mix. All that is required of the critic is that they say what is wrong. The amount of detail, any compliments or opinions- that's all up to the individual critic. A critique is not lacking without these things.

[Errol McGillivray]

Cream Puffnut

Fansub

If it looks like s**t, then it doesn't matter how good the idea was or how much effort the person made to draw it. All that matters is the final result.

I have to agree with this.
Even if the artist drew the hands instead of hiding them behind the subject's back. Really, you're going to praise the artist for not doing something they shouldn't do?
There's no point digging around for good points. A critique is a critique. If there's something you think is good about it, say so, but if you find yourself needing to search for one you might as well not.

Acknowledge the effort, but never forgive the shittiness. That's what I say. It's pretty easy to see where effort and care was taken and where it wasn't.

More often than not (around here) there's nothing good to mention. ESPECIALLY the prettily polished turds. The better the rendering, the more pathetic the fundamental mistakes become.