a problem with 'Picture Post'

[saltfree]

I noticed that a good majority of the threads on Picture Post
are made by people who have either just started to draw as a hobby
(and aren't exactly great due to lack of experience, etc)
and/or by people who haven't developed a distinguishable style yet.
not to mention that practically anything drawn on paper or digitally is called "art".
I personally haven't felt that what I drew was art when I still had so many difficulties.


the problem with this is that they probably aren't at a place where they can handle
real constructive criticism because
they haven't had enough experience to know what to actually apply
to their technique and style. additionally, another problem is that most of these inexperienced "artists" are criticizing each other.
this can only lead to sharing what may or may not be helpful tips.

this ultimately means that the chances of someone significantly improving their craft as an artist are slim to none.
there will rarely come a time when someone is looking for good constructive criticism whether or not it might be a bit hard to hear and someone who is actually capable of giving valuable input.

arrow the best thing for someone looking to seriously draw and create is to practice drawing until they feel that they're at a level where they know
they developed a pretty distinct style, they have a few techniques under their belt, they know their basic anatomy pretty well and
they don't go to the Picture Post merely for the compliments.

[Kaiser-chan]

The biggest problem I see here is that you're expecting the Picture Post to be something it isn't. You might as well expect the Comic Creators to be full of pros, or the GD to have well-reasoned discourse. If you want a forum with people who are at a level of maturity and have a strong enough interest in art to be able to take and give out good advice about individual works of art, you'll do better going somewhere that has people like that making up the bulk of the members - not just the vocal minority.

I spent a while trying to milk good things out of the PP and I'm still startled I ever got decent advice among all the s**t. I comment sometimes if I think there's a possibility the person will listen, but mostly it's because I want to believe the person I'm replying to is the kind of person who will listen if I phrase it right and provide the right resources - not because I have any reason to think they would be.

But you're also pretty wrong on the whole style bit. Style isn't skill - it's just that a really low-level beginner's conscious and unconscious choices are so hidden under their mistakes that it's impossible to see at that point. Skill brings it to the point where you can see choices instead of just mistakes - style does not, however, bring skill. Conscious style choices are not inherently necessary for someone's work to be evaluated, and you can hardly evaluate objectively based on the unintentional ones.

[Rachael Aryn]

And that's the reason I don't post my stuff for CC in on the internet period. I'm still trying to unlearn all of the Anime bull hockey i've taught myself instead of the basics...I don't need worse advice from people who think they know what they're talking about.

It's more likely you would get better critiques in this forum due to how many people are in the industry or in school. Most people can't be bothered to do it though, including myself, from so many run ins with the crap that festers in PP

[saltfree]

Kaiser-chan

The biggest problem I see here is that you're expecting the Picture Post to be something it isn't. You might as well expect the Comic Creators to be full of pros, or the GD to have well-reasoned discourse. If you want a forum with people who are at a level of maturity and have a strong enough interest in art to be able to take and give out good advice about individual works of art, you'll do better going somewhere that has people like that making up the bulk of the members - not just the vocal minority.

I spent a while trying to milk good things out of the PP and I'm still startled I ever got decent advice among all the s**t. I comment sometimes if I think there's a possibility the person will listen, but mostly it's because I want to believe the person I'm replying to is the kind of person who will listen if I phrase it right and provide the right resources - not because I have any reason to think they would be.

But you're also pretty wrong on the whole style bit. Style isn't skill - it's just that a really low-level beginner's conscious and unconscious choices are so hidden under their mistakes that it's impossible to see at that point. Skill brings it to the point where you can see choices instead of just mistakes - style does not, however, bring skill. Conscious style choices are not inherently necessary for someone's work to be evaluated, and you can hardly evaluate objectively based on the unintentional ones.

thanks for taking time to talk about the Picture Post.
first off, I don't believe I ever said that style is synonymous with skill.
I also don't believe that style is a given. it's something that you develop.
what I'm saying is that most beginners or people without much experience drawing
tend to make things that are indistinguishable from other beginner-like drawings (and therefore no style).
furthermore I could elaborate and say that if you have an idea of what your style is
or you at least know that you're beginning to form one,
you don't have to change how you draw every time someone points out
there's a problem with your drawing (whether the problem is anatomy based or otherwise)
because you know what's going to work with your style and what is just something you need to consider changing in order to make your work stronger. you aren't going to be able
to make these sort of choices for yourself if you're just a flat out beginner,
and that's why I think people should stay away from the Picture Post
or any sort of art forum until they've had enough time on their own.

and the reason why I'm writing about the problems I see with Picture Post
is because I remember it being a lot stronger when I was posting my stuff there
several years ago. it's partly why I was able to improve, myself.
I know you and many others might think I'm expecting too much from the Picture Post
but as someone who really loves art and loves to draw in all sorts of mediums,
it really pains me that so many people are exchanging opinions and criticisms
that might not only not help them but ultimately harm them as potential artists.
also because it seems to be getting considerably worse.

[saltfree]

Ms Spook

And that's the reason I don't post my stuff for CC in on the internet period. I'm still trying to unlearn all of the Anime bull hockey i've taught myself instead of the basics...I don't need worse advice from people who think they know what they're talking about.

It's more likely you would get better critiques in this forum due to how many people are in the industry or in school. Most people can't be bothered to do it though, including myself, from so many run ins with the crap that festers in PP

I used to be very active on gaia with my friend many years ago
partly because of the picture post. more recently my friend was talking to me
about the times we spent on the picture post and how sad it is that
so many amazing artists left that forum and how ineffective it is now.

and yeah, if you're not getting the right advice it could really turn into poison.
that's mostly what makes me concerned about the picture post.

[Kaiser-chan]

saltfree

thanks for taking time to talk about the Picture Post.
first off, I don't believe I ever said that style is synonymous with skill.
I also don't believe that style is a given. it's something that you develop.
what I'm saying is that most beginners or people without much experience drawing
tend to make things that are indistinguishable from other beginner-like drawings (and therefore no style).
furthermore I could elaborate and say that if you have an idea of what your style is
or you at least know that you're beginning to form one,
you don't have to change how you draw every time someone points out
there's a problem with your drawing (whether the problem is anatomy based or otherwise)
because you know what's going to work with your style and what is just something you need to consider changing in order to make your work stronger. you aren't going to be able
to make these sort of choices for yourself if you're just a flat out beginner,
and that's why I think people should stay away from the Picture Post
or any sort of art forum until they've had enough time on their own.

and the reason why I'm writing about the problems I see with Picture Post
is because I remember it being a lot stronger when I was posting my stuff there
several years ago. it's partly why I was able to improve, myself.
I know you and many others might think I'm expecting too much from the Picture Post
but as someone who really loves art and loves to draw in all sorts of mediums,
it really pains me that so many people are exchanging opinions and criticisms
that might not only not help them but ultimately harm them as potential artists.
also because it seems to be getting considerably worse.

I've lurked and posted in the PP for years and truthfully I don't think there's been an overall decrease in quality. I remember horrid "the arm is wrong somehow" crits in 2005, and I remember people freaking out over any critique back then too. I don't know if it really ever had a golden age, but if it did, I never saw one that stood out to me. Maybe it was a little less horrid at points, but a little less bad is hard to spot next to all the problems.

But that's just all my personal experiences with the Picture Post. I've actually had a more luck getting help in the last couple years there than I ever got before then - but that's probably because I reached a point that it was worth getting help other than "******** off and practice more". But at the same time, a more skilled artist might have more trouble getting advice there than someone of my level. There might be fewer things people there might be capable of helping with.

And for the most part, when I see a thread with a title like LOOK AT MEH DRAWLINS~!!! with four pages of comments, I figure it's a shitstorm because some kid flipped out at critique and don't look in it except for the trainwreck factor. So I probably avoid those kind of messes except when I'm in the mood to find them funny, and that would decrease the number I see.

Style can be a given, though. There really isn't a neutral style unless people really force themselves to do something like copy a photograph pixel-perfect. Get two people to draw the same person and they will come out differently (under normal circumstances. Two people from the same atelier with a focus on flawless reproduction in 70 hour sittings, maybe not so much). That is style just as much as drawing bigger or smaller eyes is. This post says it better.

A tendency to use thicker lines or bolder shapes is not a conscious choice all the time - often it's something you just do. But it still shows up in the finished product, it's still identifiable. But yeah, really low-level beginners' conscious and unconscious style choices are overshadowed by their lack of skill. That's why if they change the arm, they change the "style." Their choices don't really reflect their tastes yet, just their lack of skill.

[saltfree]

Kaiser-chan

saltfree

thanks for taking time to talk about the Picture Post.
first off, I don't believe I ever said that style is synonymous with skill.
I also don't believe that style is a given. it's something that you develop.
what I'm saying is that most beginners or people without much experience drawing
tend to make things that are indistinguishable from other beginner-like drawings (and therefore no style).
furthermore I could elaborate and say that if you have an idea of what your style is
or you at least know that you're beginning to form one,
you don't have to change how you draw every time someone points out
there's a problem with your drawing (whether the problem is anatomy based or otherwise)
because you know what's going to work with your style and what is just something you need to consider changing in order to make your work stronger. you aren't going to be able
to make these sort of choices for yourself if you're just a flat out beginner,
and that's why I think people should stay away from the Picture Post
or any sort of art forum until they've had enough time on their own.

and the reason why I'm writing about the problems I see with Picture Post
is because I remember it being a lot stronger when I was posting my stuff there
several years ago. it's partly why I was able to improve, myself.
I know you and many others might think I'm expecting too much from the Picture Post
but as someone who really loves art and loves to draw in all sorts of mediums,
it really pains me that so many people are exchanging opinions and criticisms
that might not only not help them but ultimately harm them as potential artists.
also because it seems to be getting considerably worse.

I've lurked and posted in the PP for years and truthfully I don't think there's been an overall decrease in quality. I remember horrid "the arm is wrong somehow" crits in 2005, and I remember people freaking out over any critique back then too. I don't know if it really ever had a golden age, but if it did, I never saw one that stood out to me. Maybe it was a little less horrid at points, but a little less bad is hard to spot next to all the problems.

But that's just all my personal experiences with the Picture Post. I've actually had a more luck getting help in the last couple years there than I ever got before then - but that's probably because I reached a point that it was worth getting help other than "******** off and practice more". But at the same time, a more skilled artist might have more trouble getting advice there than someone of my level. There might be fewer things people there might be capable of helping with.

And for the most part, when I see a thread with a title like LOOK AT MEH DRAWLINS~!!! with four pages of comments, I figure it's a shitstorm because some kid flipped out at critique and don't look in it except for the trainwreck factor. So I probably avoid those kind of messes except when I'm in the mood to find them funny, and that would decrease the number I see.

Style can be a given, though. There really isn't a neutral style unless people really force themselves to do something like copy a photograph pixel-perfect. Get two people to draw the same person and they will come out differently (under normal circumstances. Two people from the same atelier with a focus on flawless reproduction in 70 hour sittings, maybe not so much). That is style just as much as drawing bigger or smaller eyes is. This post says it better.

A tendency to use thicker lines or bolder shapes is not a conscious choice all the time - often it's something you just do. But it still shows up in the finished product, it's still identifiable. But yeah, really low-level beginners' conscious and unconscious style choices are overshadowed by their lack of skill. That's why if they change the arm, they change the "style." Their choices don't really reflect their tastes yet, just their lack of skill.

I think the sort of discussion we're having with "style" is different from discussing the various types of style. but thanks for the informative thread link anyway.
I get what you're saying when you say that style just kind of exists
whether or not a person strives to achieve a specific one.
but that's kind of similar to saying everything ever draws is art.
we can't really define art but we can see art when see art.
I feel the same way about style. you could say that everybody has some sort of style
but if it really can't readily be distinguished, it's as good as not having one.
also I'm not saying all mediocre drawings lack style -- just most.
it's very very difficult to tell one bad drawing from another to have different styles
but not impossible.
as for the very noticeable "bad thread here" titles, they're bound to exist, though
I think they're the more extreme of the examples of threads one typically finds
on the picture post.
and to compare what I've seen years ago (maybe 2004 ish) to what is going on now,
there used to be at least 3 to 4 very talented artists posting their work
(at almost every page of threads)
while the majority of people being average (in my opinion, of course).
but now it's difficult to find even one talented artist good at their craft.

[Vrazhe]

Picture Post is not an art forum, just like DA is not an art site. Picture Post has ALWAYS been like it is today. If you think it was any different-- well, people love their nostalgia glasses. Both PP and DA are places where people can post whatever s**t they produced, have other equally uneducated people swoon over OMG UR STYLE IS SO KAWAII and leave with a vague feeling of a job well done. Nothing more. Expecting a place like PP (********, expecting a place like GAIA) to be serious about art is completely baseless and will result in nothing but a severe disappointment on both sides.

I mean, ********, just look at Gaia's chosen recipient group, and I'm talking about Gaia as a whole here. Gaia loves brats and does everything it can to make the site as brat-friendly as possible. Self-moderation is not allowed.People who give useful yet somewhat harsh advice are reported and shunned by legions of white-knights. Hell, sometimes I am overwhelmed by a feeling that pretty much all AD regs don't belong in this forsaken forum because they're all too harsh, too realistic, too serious. Gaia belongs to those shitty artists who draw kawaii faggots and sparkly cunts. There's no place for serious artists because the art corner was never intended for the likes of them.

That said, if you expect to see people who are serious about art, go find some decent forum which is directed at professionals, not shallow weeaboos.

[saltfree]

Vrazhe

Picture Post is not an art forum, just like DA is not an art site. Picture Post has ALWAYS been like it is today. If you think it was any different-- well, people love their nostalgia glasses. Both PP and DA are places where people can post whatever s**t they produced, have other equally uneducated people swoon over OMG UR STYLE IS SO KAWAII and leave with a vague feeling of a job well done. Nothing more. Expecting a place like PP (********, expecting a place like GAIA) to be serious about art is completely baseless and will result in nothing but a severe disappointment on both sides.

I mean, ********, just look at Gaia's chosen recipient group, and I'm talking about Gaia as a whole here. Gaia loves brats and does everything it can to make the site as brat-friendly as possible. Self-moderation is not allowed.People who give useful yet somewhat harsh advice are reported and shunned by legions of white-knights. Hell, sometimes I am overwhelmed by a feeling that pretty much all AD regs don't belong in this forsaken forum because they're all too harsh, too realistic, too serious. Gaia belongs to those shitty artists who draw kawaii faggots and sparkly cunts. There's no place for serious artists because the art corner was never intended for the likes of them.

That said, if you expect to see people who are serious about art, go find some decent forum which is directed at professionals, not shallow weeaboos.

I wish I could remember some of the picture post's 'star' artists back then
so I can prove that statistically there were more respectable artists years ago,
but sadly that was years ago.
what you're saying to me about gaia having brats and idiots is not news.
I don't care about this site as a whole. I care about people who could be artists
but are instead digging themselves deeper into the holes of mediocrity.
that's not to say that I don't understand how almost pointless it is to wish something
other than anime loving immaturity from any part of this site. I get it.

oh and also, I don't completely disagree with what you're saying
but if you feel so strongly (I say strongly because you're constantly using profanity
to help describe what this site is like) about gaia, why are you even on here?

[Vrazhe]

saltfree

Vrazhe

Picture Post is not an art forum, just like DA is not an art site. Picture Post has ALWAYS been like it is today. If you think it was any different-- well, people love their nostalgia glasses. Both PP and DA are places where people can post whatever s**t they produced, have other equally uneducated people swoon over OMG UR STYLE IS SO KAWAII and leave with a vague feeling of a job well done. Nothing more. Expecting a place like PP (********, expecting a place like GAIA) to be serious about art is completely baseless and will result in nothing but a severe disappointment on both sides.

I mean, ********, just look at Gaia's chosen recipient group, and I'm talking about Gaia as a whole here. Gaia loves brats and does everything it can to make the site as brat-friendly as possible. Self-moderation is not allowed.People who give useful yet somewhat harsh advice are reported and shunned by legions of white-knights. Hell, sometimes I am overwhelmed by a feeling that pretty much all AD regs don't belong in this forsaken forum because they're all too harsh, too realistic, too serious. Gaia belongs to those shitty artists who draw kawaii faggots and sparkly cunts. There's no place for serious artists because the art corner was never intended for the likes of them.

That said, if you expect to see people who are serious about art, go find some decent forum which is directed at professionals, not shallow weeaboos.

I wish I could remember some of the picture post's 'star' artists back then
so I can prove that statistically there were more respectable artists years ago,
but sadly that was years ago.
what you're saying to me about gaia having brats and idiots is not news.
I don't care about this site as a whole. I care about people who could be artists
but are instead digging themselves deeper into the holes of mediocrity.
that's not to say that I don't understand how almost pointless it is to wish something
other than anime loving immaturity from any part of this site. I get it.

In this case you must be talking about the first years of Gaia because I've been lurking in the PP for the last five years and the only thing I see is the same s**t all over again.
And who cares about stars long dead and gone? Today we still have some people who post awesome s**t, only it quickly drowns under a flood of "RATE MAI AVI ART" crap.
The only problem is that Gaia today is several times bigger than Gaia back then, and that people who had something interesting to say/show are successfully buried by the 1:10 smart-to-idiot ratio.

If you have problem with the quality of Picture Post then you're free to post awesome art and be an angel as far as crits are concerned. But will it really help? Gaia is not a site for artists. It's a site for stupid weebs so they won't help artists, they will help weebs.


And I am still on Gaia because I love the AD regs. ********, those people make up for all the shitty spam, idiots and fail in general.

[God-the-almighty]

Kaiser-chan

The biggest problem I see here is that you're expecting the Picture Post to be something it isn't. You might as well expect the Comic Creators to be full of pros, or the GD to have well-reasoned discourse. If you want a forum with people who are at a level of maturity and have a strong enough interest in art to be able to take and give out good advice about individual works of art, you'll do better going somewhere that has people like that making up the bulk of the members - not just the vocal minority.

I spent a while trying to milk good things out of the PP and I'm still startled I ever got decent advice among all the s**t. I comment sometimes if I think there's a possibility the person will listen, but mostly it's because I want to believe the person I'm replying to is the kind of person who will listen if I phrase it right and provide the right resources - not because I have any reason to think they would be.

But you're also pretty wrong on the whole style bit. Style isn't skill - it's just that a really low-level beginner's conscious and unconscious choices are so hidden under their mistakes that it's impossible to see at that point. Skill brings it to the point where you can see choices instead of just mistakes - style does not, however, bring skill. Conscious style choices are not inherently necessary for someone's work to be evaluated, and you can hardly evaluate objectively based on the unintentional ones.

Oddly enough there has been a lot of well reasoned discorse in the GD, you just have to know where to look and know who the idiots are so you can avoid them. As for the PP, sometimes there is someone that wants to have a critique and who is willing to listen. I have helped people there. I avoid most of the threads there though because there are a lot of gloryhounds just looking for a pat on the head. I've also come across something I suspected was art theft but I didn't know about tineye then so I couldn't prove it. I think it should be open to everyone even the beginners. I dislike the thought of elitism because you never know who it can help.

[Kaiser-chan]

God-the-almighty

Oddly enough there has been a lot of well reasoned discorse in the GD, you just have to know where to look and know who the idiots are so you can avoid them. As for the PP, sometimes there is someone that wants to have a critique and who is willing to listen. I have helped people there. I avoid most of the threads there though because there are a lot of gloryhounds just looking for a pat on the head. I've also come across something I suspected was art theft but I didn't know about tineye then so I couldn't prove it. I think it should be open to everyone even the beginners. I dislike the thought of elitism because you never know who it can help.

All I know is there was a time that I modded the GD several years ago. In that short time, I became so inured to tubgirl that I can't actually feel revulsion at it anymore. But maybe again that's the issue of what one sees of a forum being a product of their own experiences in that forum - if I'd been looking for discussion instead of people breaking the rules, maybe I'd have seen the former and not the latter. Maybe if people look in the right places for good art and criticism in the PP, they find a better crop. But I don't know that it invalidates the idea that there's also a lot of bad.

I agree that beginners need a place, though. I'm glad that there are places that are welcoming to beginners, because I didn't have a place among my irl friends or at school to get feedback on art except for "it sucks, quit," and "it's okay." Even horrible critiques online were amazing compared to that. But on the other hand, I also feel as though it's a shame that any place beginners can get advice is usually polluted by toxic attitudes. Like all the issues that go into with "it's not wrong it's my style," or the tendency towards tutorials rather than practice. Or like the idea that if you nitpick every anatomy error every time someone makes it, they'll eventually run out of mistakes to make - it's just not true and it's actually a little toxic.

It's not at all helpful for beginners when all the advice is just dealing with one-off anatomy mistakes - nitpicking individual errors works for perfecting a work, not for correcting long-trending knowledge gaps. But other beginners aren't capable of giving better help, and it's not really reasonable for more experienced artists to try to constantly put themselves out there and help beginners who aren't ready to accept help yet.


But more importantly perhaps, if the PP is a place that's open for beginners, then it's not really a place that's suited for more in-depth advice. Just like it wouldn't be reasonable to think CA.org needs to be a place for people who just want to feel good about drawing shiny anime, or expecting CGSociety to be full of traditional art. If a place is better suited to the needs of beginners, it can't also be tailored to best address those of more experienced artists.

[God-the-almighty]

Kaiser-chan

God-the-almighty

Oddly enough there has been a lot of well reasoned discorse in the GD, you just have to know where to look and know who the idiots are so you can avoid them. As for the PP, sometimes there is someone that wants to have a critique and who is willing to listen. I have helped people there. I avoid most of the threads there though because there are a lot of gloryhounds just looking for a pat on the head. I've also come across something I suspected was art theft but I didn't know about tineye then so I couldn't prove it. I think it should be open to everyone even the beginners. I dislike the thought of elitism because you never know who it can help.

All I know is there was a time that I modded the GD several years ago. In that short time, I became so inured to tubgirl that I can't actually feel revulsion at it anymore. But maybe again that's the issue of what one sees of a forum being a product of their own experiences in that forum - if I'd been looking for discussion instead of people breaking the rules, maybe I'd have seen the former and not the latter. Maybe if people look in the right places for good art and criticism in the PP, they find a better crop. But I don't know that it invalidates the idea that there's also a lot of bad.

I agree that beginners need a place, though. I'm glad that there are places that are welcoming to beginners, because I didn't have a place among my irl friends or at school to get feedback on art except for "it sucks, quit," and "it's okay." Even horrible critiques online were amazing compared to that. But on the other hand, I also feel as though it's a shame that any place beginners can get advice is usually polluted by toxic attitudes. Like all the issues that go into with "it's not wrong it's my style," or the tendency towards tutorials rather than practice. Or like the idea that if you nitpick every anatomy error every time someone makes it, they'll eventually run out of mistakes to make - it's just not true and it's actually a little toxic.

It's not at all helpful for beginners when all the advice is just dealing with one-off anatomy mistakes - nitpicking individual errors works for perfecting a work, not for correcting long-trending knowledge gaps. But other beginners aren't capable of giving better help, and it's not really reasonable for more experienced artists to try to constantly put themselves out there and help beginners who aren't ready to accept help yet.


But more importantly perhaps, if the PP is a place that's open for beginners, then it's not really a place that's suited for more in-depth advice. Just like it wouldn't be reasonable to think CA.org needs to be a place for people who just want to feel good about drawing shiny anime, or expecting CGSociety to be full of traditional art. If a place is better suited to the needs of beginners, it can't also be tailored to best address those of more experienced artists.

Well if there's one thing my time in the GD has taught me it's patience and not getting mad or in your face to people. I spent a lot of time there calming things down and stopping flame wars. I got very good at getting people to listen to me by being calm and not attacking them. I have been able to set the beginners on the right path. I do point out anatomical errors but urge them to draw from life and I explain why this is a good thing to do. I've also managed to show them the beginner mistake of drawing from your head instead of what you see. I do tend to be very general with beginners and mostly push that because it's a good beginning. I tend not to even bother with the worst of them. I have gotten pretty good at figuring out who wants to get better and the misguided as opposed to who's just being butt-headed ignorant. Often I link them to helpful information too and references showing what I mean. I don't think it's hopeless.


Edit: I have also helped people who were further along. One thing I remember was a guy who was pretty advanced but needed work on lighting and shading. I don't see it as a either or thing.

[-2o]

I would say, if there is any "problem" with the picture post, it's the high turnover rate of the people posting. Unlike the AD that has more stable contributors, PP has people who more or less come for their thread and then leave. It is the reason that no effort to date has worked in terms of improving the forum as a whole. It's best to either just go to a place with a more stable/serious membership where most people are there for art.

[saltfree]

-2o

I would say, if there is any "problem" with the picture post, it's the high turnover rate of the people posting. Unlike the AD that has more stable contributors, PP has people who more or less come for their thread and then leave. It is the reason that no effort to date has worked in terms of improving the forum as a whole. It's best to either just go to a place with a more stable/serious membership where most people are there for art.

your post had me thinking that I shouldn't even be concerned about the picture post
to begin with since the people probably don't really care
whether or not they actually turn into skilled artists