Lokklyn
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- Posted: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:37:20 +0000
Emaya, I apologize for not quote-linking each point. It's a bit too much for a topic that you and I both have resolute opinions about. I'm going to respond to your post mostly as a whole. I don't keep up on everyone who has bashed Ramy, but I have not had the chance to defend him at length until now, hence my speaking up here. (not that I think many people are actually keeping up with this thread) I was hoping to inform people of what motivation the artists who call out Ramy MIGHT have. I generalized, but there are definitely artists are very caught up in the quest for popularity. My intention was to change peoples' negative opinions of Ramy, but if I failed, oh well, hopefully they learned something new and redeeming. I don't want to generate attention for myself (I would rather stay out of the spotlight), but if I'm called out for MY art, I do feel the need to defend it to some extent.
When politicians attack each other to gain votes, it takes an intelligent audience to differentiate between mudslinging and valid argument. To me, there has been a LOT of mud slung at Ramy with no productive outcome. "Most unoriginal artist award goes to: Ramy!" for instance, is frustrating to see in a well-known deviant artist's journal (more frustrating when I felt his post was entirely hypocritical). Everyone, even the instigator, is hurt by this kind of situation. It certainly lowers my opinion of them if they aren't approaching the criticism through an appropriate outlet. If you are very concerned with his work, and genuinely want him to improve, it is better to send him a private note, or comment on his pieces, rather than seek the approval of anyone who reads your journal, or a forum you post on.
The DA system IS messed up, and very much biased towards a certain style in illustration and photography. (Photography: attractive girls. Illustration: anime) I like Ramy's style. It's compelling to see how people react to it (ie: the same effect adorable kittens have on people). If I like the look of someone's art in particular, I don't think it makes me a terrible artist, even if the lowest common denominator is also attracted to that art. There are people I consider less technically skilled who are of substantial popularity on DA, as you've mentioned, but that is a reflection of DA's biases. I believe that MOST of the people who are bitter about it wish they were receiving more attention for their own work- if Ramy weren't popular, this would definitely not be an issue. People have the right to not like someone's body of work, but it seems very self-aggrandizing and unnecessary to broadcast their despise of it publicly. I'm not going to complain about people I feel are "overrated" on DA, because I know that DA as a whole values a certain style over others. If people are that concerned about being seen on DA, either find out how to make work that appeals to DA's audience, or find a gallery that already embraces your style. No amount of complaining on my part will change what style of work DA's population likes, just generate silly drama.
The argument doesn't seem to be whether Ramy has technical skill, but that he gravitates towards a certain "look." I don't know what to tell you. He's actively trying to branch out, even if you can't see it. Because I'm close to him, I know all the work he's putting into his pieces. He's making a serious effort, because he takes input seriously, and I commend that.
You're right. I don't know the people on the other end, but my knowledge of specific incidents extends beyond what I've read on Encyclopedia Dramatica. I make informed generalizations about their motivations in posting inflammatory material.
Because I'm looking for a job in an industry that doesn't approve of anime, in general. I'm trying to pursue a career in concept art in games- i think it's fair for me to broaden my approach as an artist, and look to a more realistic style that will appeal to them. The most important thing about art, if you DO have some kind of external impetus to create (like, art for purpose versus art for art's sake), then you need to appeal to that audience in order to achieve the goal. People are criticized for making money from their art, but I think it's reasonable to try to feed yourself from it. While Ramy likes drawing the way he does, he acknowledges the need for versatility and is striving to improve. I am mostly happy with my art, but I am trying to make it more universally appealing. That's a personal dilemma, though, and it pretty much depends on your goals as an artist. I'm not hailing realism as the end-all, be-all style of art. I don't like photorealism (why not take a picture?) and enjoy "stylized realism." However, I still need to SHOW that I can do it.
Ramy is not pursuing a career in art, so developing a super realistic style is not his priority. I, on the other hand, absolutely need to be versatile to reach my goals, but don't think it's important for me to pressure everyone else around me to strive for the same thing, especially if they don't have the same aspirations. It's great if he feels the drive to further develop his style, and it would be equally great if certain individuals could be more supportive of that attempt.
Apologies if this came off as inflammatory
When politicians attack each other to gain votes, it takes an intelligent audience to differentiate between mudslinging and valid argument. To me, there has been a LOT of mud slung at Ramy with no productive outcome. "Most unoriginal artist award goes to: Ramy!" for instance, is frustrating to see in a well-known deviant artist's journal (more frustrating when I felt his post was entirely hypocritical). Everyone, even the instigator, is hurt by this kind of situation. It certainly lowers my opinion of them if they aren't approaching the criticism through an appropriate outlet. If you are very concerned with his work, and genuinely want him to improve, it is better to send him a private note, or comment on his pieces, rather than seek the approval of anyone who reads your journal, or a forum you post on.
The DA system IS messed up, and very much biased towards a certain style in illustration and photography. (Photography: attractive girls. Illustration: anime) I like Ramy's style. It's compelling to see how people react to it (ie: the same effect adorable kittens have on people). If I like the look of someone's art in particular, I don't think it makes me a terrible artist, even if the lowest common denominator is also attracted to that art. There are people I consider less technically skilled who are of substantial popularity on DA, as you've mentioned, but that is a reflection of DA's biases. I believe that MOST of the people who are bitter about it wish they were receiving more attention for their own work- if Ramy weren't popular, this would definitely not be an issue. People have the right to not like someone's body of work, but it seems very self-aggrandizing and unnecessary to broadcast their despise of it publicly. I'm not going to complain about people I feel are "overrated" on DA, because I know that DA as a whole values a certain style over others. If people are that concerned about being seen on DA, either find out how to make work that appeals to DA's audience, or find a gallery that already embraces your style. No amount of complaining on my part will change what style of work DA's population likes, just generate silly drama.
The argument doesn't seem to be whether Ramy has technical skill, but that he gravitates towards a certain "look." I don't know what to tell you. He's actively trying to branch out, even if you can't see it. Because I'm close to him, I know all the work he's putting into his pieces. He's making a serious effort, because he takes input seriously, and I commend that.
You're right. I don't know the people on the other end, but my knowledge of specific incidents extends beyond what I've read on Encyclopedia Dramatica. I make informed generalizations about their motivations in posting inflammatory material.
Quote:
Why on earth do you people anyway have to speak lowly of Anime art and highly of realism!? I'm not saying either has any superiority over the other, but doesn't the fact that you drew anime art at all suggest that you do enjoy it to some degree, and that you yourself should understand that a great deal of effort still gets planted into creating GOOD anime art?
And really I don't see why a person COULDN'T make art that is appealing to the masses which they could fully enjoy themselves AND show an incredible sense of creativity and technical skill. Sure, it takes a lot of effort and time, but isn't that the whole POINT? I mean, some small number of fanfictionists are capable of doing it, and they ahve a HUGE stereotype to break through, so how much more different can it be with drawing!?
And really I don't see why a person COULDN'T make art that is appealing to the masses which they could fully enjoy themselves AND show an incredible sense of creativity and technical skill. Sure, it takes a lot of effort and time, but isn't that the whole POINT? I mean, some small number of fanfictionists are capable of doing it, and they ahve a HUGE stereotype to break through, so how much more different can it be with drawing!?
Because I'm looking for a job in an industry that doesn't approve of anime, in general. I'm trying to pursue a career in concept art in games- i think it's fair for me to broaden my approach as an artist, and look to a more realistic style that will appeal to them. The most important thing about art, if you DO have some kind of external impetus to create (like, art for purpose versus art for art's sake), then you need to appeal to that audience in order to achieve the goal. People are criticized for making money from their art, but I think it's reasonable to try to feed yourself from it. While Ramy likes drawing the way he does, he acknowledges the need for versatility and is striving to improve. I am mostly happy with my art, but I am trying to make it more universally appealing. That's a personal dilemma, though, and it pretty much depends on your goals as an artist. I'm not hailing realism as the end-all, be-all style of art. I don't like photorealism (why not take a picture?) and enjoy "stylized realism." However, I still need to SHOW that I can do it.
Ramy is not pursuing a career in art, so developing a super realistic style is not his priority. I, on the other hand, absolutely need to be versatile to reach my goals, but don't think it's important for me to pressure everyone else around me to strive for the same thing, especially if they don't have the same aspirations. It's great if he feels the drive to further develop his style, and it would be equally great if certain individuals could be more supportive of that attempt.
Apologies if this came off as inflammatory
