Shotacon/Lolicon. Why isnt it legal? Discuss.

[Momiis_Special_Friend]

Um....is no one getting that this stuff is about the same as KIDDY PORN!? Does NO ONE see what's WRONG with that?!

[Juutilainen]

Momiis_Special_Friend

Um....is no one getting that this stuff is about the same as KIDDY PORN!? Does NO ONE see what's WRONG with that?!

What's wrong with what? Nothing's wrong with Loli/Shota media.

No real people are involved. It's all just the author's ideas put on ink and paper. I fail to see a good reason why free speech should be criminalized.

So yeah. Loli and Shota ARE NOT kiddy porn.
Kiddy Porn = REAL children are involved
Loli and Shota = A genre of manga/anime/eroge

Sorry, but your argument fails.

EDIT:

However, do you know what's truly evil and wrong? Censorship. There's nothing more vile and evil than throwing innocent people in prison just because they like reading/watching fictional material that the public finds "nasty".

EDIT 2:

Yeah, I also don't remember loli/shota being banned here in the US. As far as I know, they're only illegal in Canada, UK, and Australia, but not in the US. So yeah, those should still be legal here in the US.

[RamenSoup43]

PED0BEAR, is that you?

You shouldn't be looking at hentai, you should be chasing down the real thing, right? It's out there, you just got to find the right sites.

Oh and remember, you're an endangered species, don't let that government hunt you down and tag you, then you'd be really screwed.

[Juutilainen]

RamenSoup43

PED0BEAR, is that you?

You shouldn't be looking at hentai, you should be chasing down the real thing, right? It's out there, you just got to find the right sites.

Oh and remember, you're an endangered species, don't let that government hunt you down and tag you, then you'd be really screwed.

Are you perhaps talking to me?

What, so I'm a ***** now just because I support free speech and oppose censorship?

Grow up, please. The world isn't black and white.

[RamenSoup43]

Juutilainen

RamenSoup43

PED0BEAR, is that you?

You shouldn't be looking at hentai, you should be chasing down the real thing, right? It's out there, you just got to find the right sites.

Oh and remember, you're an endangered species, don't let that government hunt you down and tag you, then you'd be really screwed.

Are you perhaps talking to me?

What, so I'm a ***** now just because I support free speech and oppose censorship?

Grow up, please. The world isn't black and white.

Nope, but the law is. Kinda sucks, doesn't it.

Anyway, it's only true if you acknowledge it yourself, I just posted to TS, but hey if you think you fit the role then more power to you bro.

Anyway, I don't even think censorship is even related in this topic, it's morals. Besides, some of those are censored to begin with so there's already something definitely wrong with it, right?

[Juutilainen]

Actually, it is morals that create censorship. And yes, sadly, the law is black and white.

Which is utter BS to me, because the definition of "good morals" depends upon person to person. I don't get how only a certain group's morals are labeled as "correct" and other beliefs are "wrong".

I personally don't find anything wrong with loli/shota, since those are just fictional works and they harm no one. Yet, what angers me so much is how countries like Canada or UK are throwing innocent people in prison just because they read or watch loli and shota.

I personally enjoy hentai manga, doujins, and eroge, and read/play them once in a while (mostly Yuri titles). However, does that mean I'm a ***** and wish to rape real individuals? Nope. I find real kiddie porn to be absolutely terrible and disgusting, and I am also strongly against child abuse and rape.

However, since the public finds the hentai and eroge I enjoy to be "obscene", does that mean I should be put in jail, even though I have never committed a crime in my life?

This is exactly why I find those countries' censorship laws to be absolutely ridiculous and self-righteous.


EDIT:

Oh, and please don't call me "bro". Not all people who appreciate hentai are male.

[Spiral Knight]

More like awesomecon, Amirite?

[RamenSoup43]

Juutilainen

Actually, it is morals that create censorship. And yes, sadly, the law is black and white.

Which is utter BS to me, because the definition of "good morals" depends upon person to person. I don't get how only a certain group's morals are labeled as "correct" and other beliefs are "wrong".

I personally don't find anything wrong with loli/shota, since those are just fictional works and they harm no one. Yet, what angers me so much is how countries like Canada or UK are throwing innocent people in prison just because they read or watch loli and shota.

I personally enjoy hentai manga, doujins, and eroge, and read/play them once in a while (mostly Yuri titles). However, does that mean I'm a ***** and wish to rape real individuals? Nope. I find real kiddie porn to be absolutely terrible and disgusting, and I am also strongly against child abuse and rape.

However, since the public finds the hentai and eroge I enjoy to be "obscene", does that mean I should be put in jail, even though I have never committed a crime in my life?

This is exactly why I find those countries' censorship laws to be absolutely ridiculous and self-righteous.


EDIT:

Oh, and please don't call me "bro". Not all people who appreciate hentai are male.

Eh, as far as I'm concerned, everyone on the internet is the same. I always ask for pictures or webconferences if I'm serious. Want to set up that discussion, I'm all good for it. It's one that should be face to face anyway.

The reason why it's wrong is because it promotes grownups sleeping around with kids. Last time I checked, that kinda stuff wasn't good to do. Apperently, underage mothers and what not are frowned upon, as is underage sex slaves, underage bdsm.. well yeah anything underage sexually. Why the hell do you think all these hot teachers around here are going to jail? Because they wanted their 6th grader's cack.

Think of it this way, when you compare someone stealing for wealth and stealing for neccesity, in the end, both of them are stealing. Wether you're wackin' it to a movie of a 10 year old drawn in photoshop or of a 10 year old that you photoshopped, you're still wackin' it to a 10 year old.

Hentai and the such aren't just considered obscene, they ARE obscene. That's what draws people in, because that's what it is. Shoving a phone up a girl's koochypop and calling it to see it vibrate, yeah that's obscene. But there are those lines. If you want to cross it, be my guest. I'm just stating that it pretty much is the whole ***** thing wether it's on ink, or in a rundown shack in a 3rd world country.

[Velnore]

I'm freee to download loli from sites here, no police, no tax, no limit......

[RamenSoup43]

I've heard about some sites too. And some of the stuff on there isn't just moe cuteness and whatnot. What people respond is even a little more. Anyway, the farthest I'd go with age is anything that ends with "with consent" so at least I'd know I'd be safe.

Apperently where I live it's 16 so that's where I have to draw my line of what's okay for me.

[Ciel_Butterfly]

Im perfectly ok with Shotacon and Lollicon, i personally liked Boku no Pico.

[GAlA Site Assistant 21]

...

[Juutilainen]

No. You think it's wrong because you THINK it promotes child abuse and encouraging people to abuse kids in real life. The thing is, loli and shota doesn't do that.

Any kind of published works, whether it be a book, a game, etc., are made with one of the three purposes: to inform, to persuade, or to entertain.

A work that was meant to inform would be something like instructional pamphlets, cookbooks, and so on.

A work that's meant to persuade would be something like Hitler's Mein Kampf (persuades the readers to hate Jews and gives reasons why they should), or an essay about why Marijuana should be legalized.

A work whose purpose is to entertain would be movies, video games, anime, and yes, hentai and eroge.

As you can see here, no matter how violent a video game is, or no matter how sexual a manga is, they are NOT written to encourage the players or the readers to actually copy the actions depicted in the work. Games, books, and such are made just for sole entertainment alone, and does not promote real crimes in any way at all. You THINK that things like violent video games or loli/shota manga promote real child abuse, but they DON'T. If the authors of loli/shota really did want you to abuse real kids, then they would be writing extremely lengthy and detailed essays about why you should abuse kids, instead of some manga that shows underage people engaging in sexual acts. If the creators of Grand Theft Auto really did want you to commit real crimes, then they would be writing a highly persuasive book or creating a persuasive documentary, instead of creating some mindless video game.

In the end, the authors of loli/shota only wanted one thing: To entertain their audiences. I can assure you that those authors are not criminals, and if they wanted to promote violence against children, then they would do something more persuasive than some un-educational comic book.

And no, wacking off to drawings is NOT the same as wacking off to real kids. Since when did drawings become the same as real people? Has the world really gone nuts? When someone is aroused by drawings of anime girls, they get aroused BY anime girls. If someone gets aroused by photographs of real girls, they get aroused BY real girls. To get to the point, a drawing and a real person is NOT the same, and will never be, because a drawing is just lines on paper (or pixels) while a real person is a REAL person.

So what that means is that if someone enjoys loli/shota hentai, they're simply a fan of hentai. They are NOT ***** unless they are sexually aroused by REAL kids. You even know what a ***** is? A ***** is an adult who is sexually attracted to children. And when I say children, I mean REAL children. Anyone who gets turned on by drawings, but not real kids is NOT a *****, since drawings are not children; they're lines on paper or colored pixels on a screen.

Also, according to your logic, it's okay to enjoy watching fictional underage people beat the living crap out of each other (such as in Naruto, where ninja kids violently beat each other up with weapons, ninjutsu, etc.), but it's not okay to enjoy watching fictional underage people engage in romance or sexual acts? Why is that? Why is underage romance and sex so vilified, while underage violence is glorified and regarded as "cool"? Can anyone explain the logic to that? To me, I personally see nothing wrong with violence or sex, as long as they're fictional. However, I don't understand why the people who think loli/shota is wrong enjoy underage violence on the other hand. So you're telling me that it's cool for fictional kids/teenagers to fight and kill each other, but it's wrong for them to love and have sex with each other? Believe me, I've already read lots of hentai manga, and in most of them, the characters have sex because they like each other and they both CONSENTED to it. So now, you're telling me that consensual sex between two underage fictional characters is wrong, but two fictional characters trying to kill each other is acceptable?

EDIT:
Since it's already late, and I'm studying for a test, this would probably be my last response to this thread for tonight. I shall come back to this thread again tomorrow, if this thread has gathered argument-worthy responses.

[RamenSoup43]

Juutilainen

No. You think it's wrong because you THINK it promotes child abuse and encouraging people to abuse kids in real life. The thing is, loli and shota doesn't do that.

Any kind of published works, whether it be a book, a game, etc., are made with one of the three purposes: to inform, to persuade, or to entertain.

A work that was meant to inform would be something like instructional pamphlets, cookbooks, and so on.

A work that's meant to persuade would be something like Hitler's Mein Kampf (persuades the readers to hate Jews and gives reasons why they should), or an essay about why Marijuana should be legalized.

A work whose purpose is to entertain would be movies, video games, anime, and yes, hentai and eroge.

As you can see here, no matter how violent a video game is, or no matter how sexual a manga is, they are NOT written to encourage the players or the readers to actually copy the actions depicted in the work. Games, books, and such are made just for sole entertainment alone, and does not promote real crimes in any way at all. You THINK that things like violent video games or loli/shota manga promote real child abuse, but they DON'T. If the authors of loli/shota really did want you to abuse real kids, then they would be writing extremely lengthy and detailed essays about why you should abuse kids, instead of some manga that shows underage people engaging in sexual acts. If the creators of Grand Theft Auto really did want you to commit real crimes, then they would be writing a highly persuasive book or creating a persuasive documentary, instead of creating some mindless video game.

In the end, the authors of loli/shota only wanted one thing: To entertain their audiences. I can assure you that those authors are not criminals, and if they wanted to promote violence against children, then they would do something more persuasive than some un-educational comic book.

And no, wacking off to drawings is NOT the same as wacking off to real kids. Since when did drawings become the same as real people? Has the world really gone nuts? When someone is aroused by drawings of anime girls, they get aroused BY anime girls. If someone gets aroused by photographs of real girls, they get aroused BY real girls. To get to the point, a drawing and a real person is NOT the same, and will never be, because a drawing is just lines on paper (or pixels) while a real person is a REAL person.

So what that means is that if someone enjoys loli/shota hentai, they're simply a fan of hentai. They are NOT ***** unless they are sexually aroused by REAL kids. You even know what a ***** is? A ***** is an adult who is sexually attracted to children. And when I say children, I mean REAL children. Anyone who gets turned on by drawings, but not real kids is NOT a *****, since drawings are not children; they're lines on paper or colored pixels on a screen.

Also, according to your logic, it's okay to enjoy watching fictional underage people beat the living crap out of each other (such as in Naruto, where ninja kids violently beat each other up with weapons, ninjutsu, etc.), but it's not okay to enjoy watching fictional underage people engage in romance or sexual acts? Why is that? Why is underage romance and sex so vilified, while underage violence is glorified and regarded as "cool"? Can anyone explain the logic to that? To me, I personally see nothing wrong with violence or sex, as long as they're fictional. However, I don't understand why the people who think loli/shota is wrong enjoy underage violence on the other hand. So you're telling me that it's cool for fictional kids/teenagers to fight and kill each other, but it's wrong for them to love and have sex with each other? Believe me, I've already read lots of hentai manga, and in most of them, the characters have sex because they like each other and they both CONSENTED to it. So now, you're telling me that consensual sex between two fictional characters is wrong, but two fictional characters trying to kill each other is acceptable?

If you go as that far, the movie industry would surley suffer that wrath.

GTA and games like that (like Bully) are depicted either in satire, or portrayed as adults. I don't see Nico trying to get it on with some 10 year old, nor do I see any little kiddies run around in that town (unless you count mods, like that one mod that put Lucky Star and Higurashi characters in GTA San Andreas). Yeah I realize the whole killing and what not isn't the message that video games in the states are sending. But I just don't see the eroge that show prepubescent catgirls getting felt up by the protagonist being a hot item here as it is in another country where their laws are different.

Still got to remember that the age of consent is different in other places. In the states, it's the average of 16 years of age that's the safe limit, while in Japan 13 is their norm, even though most cases prefectual laws usually bump it up.

I realize it's for entertainment purposes. But so is Penthouse, Spice, and PPV Hot Choice. I'm pretty sure the shows on those channels aren't only to inform and entertain. And yeah, when you're turned on by 10 year olds, you're turned on by 10 year olds wether it's on paper or not. If you're not good for you, but guess what, you don't represent the entire world. Bring up Naruto? Yeah, kids killing kids in a fantasy world. You honestly can't say that hasn't brought at least one disaster in real life. Look up a story where a kid buried himself in sand trying to imitate Gaara's Sand Coffin, suffocating himself in the process. That's stretching it, but hey, he got inspired to do it right? Although yeah, I blame the parents equally for not paying attention to their kid, or whoever the hell was supposed to be the caretaker.

In any case, even though not everyone who draws little kids in said acts may not be *****, alot of them do look it up, and are somehow brought into some circle, where people do get arrested for having them. Drawing or not, if it's a ten year old being drilled by a forty year old, on paper or not, it is still what it is.

[RamenSoup43]

In any case, it's described as this:

“obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children"

The drawn type anyway. My advice to you closet whatever you want to call it, don't bring the topic out in the open. I'm sure you're all swell people and all, but some skeletons should remain in the closet.


Unless some are just hilariously blatant in semi-popular productions. In which won't (in almost all cases, thank you KissXSis... eh, they're like about to graduate high school so that's probably the 16-17 mark) portray graphic actions of sexual actions.

They may do the suggestive thing, but that's about as far as they can take it.