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marshmallowcreampie
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Edit: Sailormoon was the first Magical girl anything. ti's popularity had to do with equality, not marketing. What did have to do with marketing fans didn't like (and was sexualized).


Actually, Sailor Moon was not the first magical girl work. They've been around since about the 60's or 70's. However, Sailor Moon did revitalize, reinvent, and popularize the whole idea, and many magical girl works that came after it borrowed a lot of ideas and elements that Sailor Moon had.


What came before it that was a magical girl?
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What came before it that was a magical girl?


Sally the Witch is typically credited as the earliest magical girl series. Other shows came later, but Sailor Moon is typically seen as the defining work of the sub-genre.
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Cogent Dream

Isn't that still marketing though?

No. They weren't made specifically based on a sex demographic.

Cogent Dream
In each example you listed, the characters are sexualised.

I certainly didn't. 'Prepubescen't is nowhere near synonymous with 'sexualised.' Ewww.

Cogent Dream
Even CCS, despite being prepubescent, wears something you wouldn't want your daughter wearing out.

That doesn't meant it's necessarily sexualisedby he creators. Just by people who intend to impose something wrong on something innocent. Robin's boy panties weren't meant to be sexy. Besides, most outfits CCS wore aren't actually risque. They have pants or frilly shirts.

Cogent Dream
I have to admit, I found her attractive when I was a kid.

In no way does that mean the creators intended for you to.

Cogent Dream
The sexualisation can be empowering to women (marketing) and also attract male fans (marketing).

They can, but so what? Where's the proof they were made for ***** or voyeurs? Especially when the plot is 'kill the monster'?

Cogent Dream
Otherwise, why make them wear what they're wearing if there was no purpose to it?

Creativity? Because they think most people aren't dumb enough to make a 'seduction of the innocent' argument again when the first one was based on no evidence and this time around it won't be either? Because they expect the audience to focus on monster-killing, not get off to elementary and junior high kids JUST because the skirts are functionally short?
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marshmallowcreampie
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What came before it that was a magical girl?


Sally the Witch is typically credited as the earliest magical girl series. Other shows came later, but Sailor Moon is typically seen as the defining work of the sub-genre.

Ah. Thank you. I read that sailor moon was the first. My bad.
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Cogent Dream

Isn't that still marketing though?

No. They weren't made specifically based on a sex demographic.

Cogent Dream
In each example you listed, the characters are sexualised.

I certainly didn't. 'Prepubescen't is nowhere near synonymous with 'sexualised.' Ewww.

Cogent Dream
Even CCS, despite being prepubescent, wears something you wouldn't want your daughter wearing out.

That doesn't meant it's necessarily sexualisedby he creators. Just by people who intend to impose something wrong on something innocent. Robin's boy panties weren't meant to be sexy. Besides, most outfits CCS wore aren't actually risque. They have pants or frilly shirts.

Cogent Dream
I have to admit, I found her attractive when I was a kid.

In no way does that mean the creators intended for you to.

Cogent Dream
The sexualisation can be empowering to women (marketing) and also attract male fans (marketing).

They can, but so what? Where's the proof they were made for ***** or voyeurs? Especially when the plot is 'kill the monster'?

Cogent Dream
Otherwise, why make them wear what they're wearing if there was no purpose to it?

Creativity? Because they think most people aren't dumb enough to make a 'seduction of the innocent' argument again when the first one was based on no evidence and this time around it won't be either? Because they expect the audience to focus on monster-killing, not get off to elementary and junior high kids JUST because the skirts are functionally short?


I haven't watched it in a long time but I swear there was an outfit where the dress was really short and that every time she transformed, her skirt would billow out behind her, showing a lot of thigh.

If Bakuman has taught me anything, it's that manga authors are constantly judging their audience and trying to incorporate things that will boost ratings. Hence the existence of fan service. Hence no ugly heroines.

It's not that sexualisation is the focus of the show, it's just that it exists and you know somewhere there's otakus going crazy over these girls.

Admittedly, you could argue that almost everything is arranged for a reason and hence almost anything can be a marketing tool.

More on topic though, would you watch CCS if Sakura was a boy? Example isn't so good because CCS was a good show. How about Sailor Moon then? If the MCs were a boy group? I wouldn't, and that's probably one reason why magical males are less common, it doesn't sell as well.
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Cogent Dream
Otherwise, why make them wear what they're wearing if there was no purpose to it?

Creativity? Because they think most people aren't dumb enough to make a 'seduction of the innocent' argument again when the first one was based on no evidence and this time around it won't be either? Because they expect the audience to focus on monster-killing, not get off to elementary and junior high kids JUST because the skirts are functionally short?


Pretty much this. When I was a kid, my friends and I were OBSESSED with Sailor Moon and other magical girl series. (Tokyo Mew Mew was a close second to Sailor Moon for us) As young girls, a big appeal of magical girl series was that the characters kicked a**, but they were still cute and girly. I wasn't even that much of a girly girl but I did love cute things and I was totally into those cute little outfits the girls in Tokyo Mew Mew wore. cat_whee If some guys get turned on by the short skirts of the Sailor Scouts, well, that's their thing, but those tiny dresses aren't there for those guys.
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Cogent Dream

I haven't watched it in a long time but I swear there was an outfit where the dress was really short and that every time she transformed, her skirt would billow out behind her, showing a lot of thigh.

So? That's a short skirt. It doesn't mean it's mean to be sexy. Putting a tutu on your dog doesn't mean it's sexy. It's a poofy short skirt that shows no underwear.

Cogent Dream
If Bakuman has taught me anything, it's that manga authors are constantly judging their audience and trying to incorporate things that will boost ratings. Hence the existence of fan service. Hence no ugly heroines.

There aren't ugly men in LOTR and that's not based on fanservice. Why should manga be any different?

Cogent Dream
It's not that sexualisation is the focus of the show, it's just that it exists and you know somewhere there's otakus going crazy over these girls.
Where's your proof? A short skirt that's functional or pretty? A short skirt when girls at that age already wear short skirts?

Cogent Dream
Admittedly, you could argue that almost everything is arranged for a reason and hence almost anything can be a marketing tool.

You can argue the sun goes around the moon. Doesn't mean it does. doesn't mean CCS is representative of a huge umbrella trope, either.

Cogent Dream
More on topic though, would you watch CCS if Sakura was a boy?

This is actually a case where marketing is relevant and did take place. 4kids tried to advertise it to boys. It failed. There are plenty of male who pick up the manga and unbutchered version of
the anime for non-hentai reasons. Just put the DVD on at a con.

Cogent Dream
Example isn't so good because CCS was a good show.

So bad shows are about sex now?

Cogent Dream
How about Sailor Moon then?

It was a good show. The skirts are functionally short. The heroines are chaste. The closest you get is the occasional 'accidental compromising position' joke or a toddler trying to steal someone's towel. It's called artistic nudity and you'd have top prove every single naked picture in an art gallery is there for to be sexualised too.

Cogent Dream
If the MCs were a boy group?

You mean the starlights, who were boys who became girls? Those aren't sexualised either.

Cogent Dream
I wouldn't, and that's probably one reason why magical males are less common, it doesn't sell as well.

Magical males? You mean magi-rangers? The popular power rangers season where the girls and boys both had magical transformations and used magic? Or do you mean Kamen Rider Kabuto, where men changed into mech suits that was hugely popular among girls? Or are we talking the thousands of magical girl shows that boys like for the plot?
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Cogent Dream

I haven't watched it in a long time but I swear there was an outfit where the dress was really short and that every time she transformed, her skirt would billow out behind her, showing a lot of thigh.

So? That's a short skirt. It doesn't mean it's mean to be sexy. Putting a tutu on your dog doesn't mean it's sexy. It's a poofy short skirt that shows no underwear.

Cogent Dream
If Bakuman has taught me anything, it's that manga authors are constantly judging their audience and trying to incorporate things that will boost ratings. Hence the existence of fan service. Hence no ugly heroines.

There aren't ugly men in LOTR and that's not based on fanservice. Why should manga be any different?

Cogent Dream
It's not that sexualisation is the focus of the show, it's just that it exists and you know somewhere there's otakus going crazy over these girls.
Where's your proof? A short skirt that's functional or pretty? A short skirt when girls at that age already wear short skirts?

Cogent Dream
Admittedly, you could argue that almost everything is arranged for a reason and hence almost anything can be a marketing tool.

You can argue the sun goes around the moon. Doesn't mean it does. doesn't mean CCS is representative of a huge umbrella trope, either.

Cogent Dream
More on topic though, would you watch CCS if Sakura was a boy?

This is actually a case where marketing is relevant and did take place. 4kids tried to advertise it to boys. It failed. There are plenty of male who pick up the manga and unbutchered version of
the anime for non-hentai reasons. Just put the DVD on at a con.

Cogent Dream
Example isn't so good because CCS was a good show.

So bad shows are about sex now?

Cogent Dream
How about Sailor Moon then?

It was a good show. The skirts are functionally short. The heroines are chaste. The closest you get is the occasional 'accidental compromising position' joke or a toddler trying to steal someone's towel. It's called artistic nudity and you'd have top prove every single naked picture in an art gallery is there for to be sexualised too.

Cogent Dream
If the MCs were a boy group?

You mean the starlights, who were boys who became girls? Those aren't sexualised either.

Cogent Dream
I wouldn't, and that's probably one reason why magical males are less common, it doesn't sell as well.

Magical males? You mean magi-rangers? The popular power rangers season where the girls and boys both had magical transformations and used magic? Or do you mean Kamen Rider Kabuto, where men changed into mech suits that was hugely popular among girls? Or are we talking the thousands of magical girl shows that boys like for the plot?


1. A short skirt on a girl is different to one on an animal - which is nude all the time. The social stigma on this has lessened over time, but isn't the purpose of short skirts, heels, makeup, etc. to sexualise the wearer (by making them physically look more attractive in some way)?

2. I dunno ... how's Gimli? The hobbits? That elf girl's father (my memory is failing me at this point)? Also, I was focused on anime since the discussion was revolving around Sailor Moon and CCS.

3. Prepubescent girls usually/hopefully don't wear short skirts (although I'm beginning to see it more and more). Can't find specific picture of a CCS otaku, since any search involving the words "Cardcaptor Sakura" end up with too much other stuff. Nanoha (another magical girl) has quite the older male otaku following.

4. How would you argue the sun goes around the moon? Maybe it's because of my commerce background, but I believe market forces would have resulted in more magical males if it were profitable. As it stands, there's more magical girls (I think this was the point of the thread, if not I apologise for going off in the wrong direction) and that's because magical girls are more easily marketed. My point is a lot more valid than the sun revolving around the moon.

5. No, CCS is a good show for either gender so it doesn't really matter if Sakura is a boy. Also, the crux of my argument isn't the sexualisation, it's the marketability. Sexualisation is just a part of it.

6. 7. 8. Again, the focus isn't sexualisation, that was just an example of marketability. Also, I wasn't aware mechs and power rangers fell into the category of magical males.
I feel the need to butt in a bit on the whole marketability vs sexualized thing.

One of the big things with the Magical Girl sub-genre is that it's made deliberately to appeal to girls, to give them a gender specific equivalent to Power Rangers or Fate/Stay Night or Ronin Warriors. The focus isn't meant to be on making the characters sexy or on marketing it to boys by doing so. It's about telling a decent story.

If you gender flipped all the characters in Sailor Moon and went with the original Japanese version for the plot, then yes, people would still watch it because it would still be fairly well written if less overtly masculine than Dragon Ball Z.

There's a market for magical dudes, there has been for decades. Ronin Warriors was a big thing in its time. The Kamen Rider series continues to sell, as do the various Power Rangers series, as do any number of series with the same idea. It's partly that writers of the Magical Girl stuff didn't expect that girls would be as into the boys' stuff, so they took a cue from Sailor Moon after it brought life back to the genre and wrote the same kind of stories with predominantly female casts.

Then a lot of them weren't marketed as much as the stuff aimed at boys were when they came to America because, as with movies, it seems to be kind of assumed that girls will watch the boys' shows if they don't want the poorly written commercial for the toys cartoons. Plus the aforementioned censorship and drastic edits that lowered the quality in many cases.

Also, @ Cogent Dream - A large adult male following doesn't indicate sexual interest or that the show is being marketed towards adult men. Think about My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and the fandom that's popped up around it, it isn't because that many dudes find cartoon horses attractive or that it's marketed towards them the show's just well written.


Another also, because it's seven AM here and I can't get to sleep. Mamoru couldn't become the Sailor Senshi of Earth specifically because he was male, word of god on that one. Likewise, Haruka was always a girl, destined love with Michiru and all, and the Starlights were originally just chicks in drag while they were pretending to be men. The "alien gender shifters" thing was put in in the anime, it bothered the author.
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Tympest

One of the big things with the Magical Girl sub-genre is that it's made deliberately to appeal to girls, to give them a gender specific equivalent to Power Rangers or Fate/Stay Night or Ronin Warriors.

I don't think marketing remained at the forefront for both the creation or most of those that fall int he genre after it. To further your MLP example, just because it sells toys and has a large audience doesn't mean there wasn't effort to make it appealing on a craft level.
DarknessofHeavenandDreams
Tympest

One of the big things with the Magical Girl sub-genre is that it's made deliberately to appeal to girls, to give them a gender specific equivalent to Power Rangers or Fate/Stay Night or Ronin Warriors.

I don't think marketing remained at the forefront for both the creation or most of those that fall int he genre after it. To further your MLP example, just because it sells toys and has a large audience doesn't mean there wasn't effort to make it appealing on a craft level.
I was trying to say that, that it was marketed towards girls initially but became it's own thing afterward with the focus more on the story.
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Tympest
DarknessofHeavenandDreams
Tympest

One of the big things with the Magical Girl sub-genre is that it's made deliberately to appeal to girls, to give them a gender specific equivalent to Power Rangers or Fate/Stay Night or Ronin Warriors.

I don't think marketing remained at the forefront for both the creation or most of those that fall int he genre after it. To further your MLP example, just because it sells toys and has a large audience doesn't mean there wasn't effort to make it appealing on a craft level.
I was trying to say that, that it was marketed towards girls initially but became it's own thing afterward with the focus more on the story.


I was trying to add to your idea. Sorry it didn't come off that way.
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I've always kinda liked the idea of a magical boy. I even designed one once. I wish I still had the picture...
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Well, there's Shugo Chara...It's magical girl genre, but the four guys in the series also transform.
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Well the point has already been made that magical girl is an effort at gender equality already, giving girls a chance to be a hero. And that the genre is meant to appeal to girls. Although one could make a blended show, I'm sure, to try finding an audience on both sides.

On guys in magical girl roles, I thought on Escaflowne. But that's a stretch, I admit, as the girl had the more unique magical power, while the guy had the power to control a magic giant mecha. There is also Sparkling Genration Valkyrie Yuuke (hope I got the name right), if you'd count a internet manga. However, while it does star a male in a typical magical girl role, it is also a gender bender where he gets turned into a girl (because that's the only way he could be a magical girl, it seems). So that sort of counts.

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